The Yankees and Orioles have played a lot of turgid, exhausting games against each other during the past decade, and last night’s unsightly 12-9 Yankee win was no exception. Weighing in at a combined 21 runs, 34 hits, and 345 pitches in 3 hours and 41 minutes, it was an ugly victory for New York, one which left me feeling more frustrated than pleased, but hey, a win, is a win, is a win, and I should not complain. Aaron Small was forgettable as he improved his record to 9-0, and the Yankee relief corps were just as bad, so bad that Mariano Rivera was forced into a game in which the team scored a dozen runs. Fortunately, Rivera only needed eight pitches to retire the Birds in the ninth, but with precious little time remaining in the season, this was not a night where you wanted to see Mo in the game.
However, the Yankees did pick up a game on the Indians who lost to the White Sox in a dramatic, extra-inning affair in Chicago. They are just a half-a-game behind the Tribe and remain a half-a-game behind the Red Sox who battered the Devil Rays 15-2 (David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez were the stars, belting the bejesus out of the ball all night, prompting John Olerud to observe, “Maybe they ought to put out a public address announcement to tell those children out there to be careful.”) The backpage headlines in both the Daily News and New York Post this morning read “Half and Half.”
It was supposed to rain yesterday in New York (and we are scheduled to see showers throughout this weekend too) but the weather cooperated as the Yanks quickly scored four runs in the bottom of the first, the big blow being a three-run homer by Jorge Posada. But the top of the second indicated that this was not going to be smooth sailing. With one out, BJ Surhoff grounded a soft ground ball to the hole between first and second. Robinson Cano had no trouble ranging to his left to make the play, but he double-clutched the ball and lolly-gagged the throw to first base.
As Cliff mentioned to me later, earlier in the year Cano rushed a throw with a slowfooted runner coming down the line and threw it away and was told to be more aware of the runner. However, this time he Cadillac’d the play assuming that Surhoff would be easy to nail with a non-challant throw. Surhoff was called safe (though judging from the replays he looked out). He was forced at second on Javey Lopez’s grounder, though he looked safe (perhaps it was a make-up call, but I thought he was out after seeing the playback). A double and a triple (aided by some weak fielding) plated three runs and suddenly it was a ballgame.
The most upsetting scene came in the bottom of the second. After Bernie Williams reached base on a single to center, Bubba Crosby laid down a beautiful bunt. Second baseman Brian Roberts covered first and Crosby, flying down the line, collided with him as he reached the base. Roberts fell to his knees and immediately you just knew something was very wrong. The ball lay at his feet and everything froze momentarily. Finally, Bernie jogged home and scored, grimacing as he crossed the plate and looked down at first. Roberts got his arm stuck in Crosby’s path and dislocated his left elbow. The replays were gruesome showing his arm bending backwards in a way it just isn’t supposed to bend. A few bone-headed defensive plays by Baltimore loaded the bases and then Gary Sheffield slapped the most unlikely grand slam you’d ever want to see. The pitch was low, and he went down and got it, but it appeared to be a foul ball. However, it had enough top spin to carry just over the fence and remain fair. Sheff got his mojo back last night, driving home six runs when all was said and done.
Again staked to a comfortable lead, the Yanks could not do what the Sox were doing to the Rays–put the game away. Small, Scott Proctor, Flash Gordon and finally Alan Embree failed to shut Baltimore down before Rivera was called on to end it. On a night when Cookie Monster helped his case for league MVP, Alex Rodriguez rebounded from his first two at bats (the second of which was especially poor as he flied out on a full-count pitch that was clearly outside) with three hits in his final three trips to the plate, including a fantastic solo blast into the upper deck in right field in the bottom of the eighth.
The Big Unit goes tonight for the Yanks, and it will be interesting to see how he responds after his infamous performance last Friday night in Toronto. It is particularly important for him to pitch well with Mike Mussina returning tomorrow and the bullpen needing a rest.
1. This is what, the second time in a week we've scored double digits and Mo's still had to come into the game? As soon as the tenth run scores, Rivera needs to leave the park for a nice steak dinner, not go warm up. And while it looks like a six man rotation for the moment, I think Small should go to the pen. He's enough of a journeyman to be able to handle it.
2. Small should go to the pen, then Wright, not Wang and Chacon. Given Torre's obsession with experience, Wright will likely remain in the rotation over Wang.
btw, This can't be said enough: Free Colter Bean. He likely can't be worse than the current long to middle relievers. At least give him a shot.
3. Deport Alan Embree (where, I dont care, but out of Joe Torre's domain).
4. You do really have to wonder who Colter Bean pissed off, don't you?
Alex, too bad you were gone already when A-Rod hit that dinger. Pete and I marvelled at it just like the weirdo Sheff homer, albeit for a different reason. An opposite-field upper-deck shot? Wow.
5. Today's game is critical (well, they all are, but this one especially), because RJ needs to get past his head-case tendencies and win the games he's supposed to, while eating up innings. I also don't want the Orioles getting even a whiff of a possible split of the series, which would be extremely damaging.
Very good column by Klapisch today about the disgust everyone felt with Mo coming in last night, and how the starters might be used to replace the dead weight in middle relief:
http://tinyurl.com/7vb9s
I like this excerpt:
"The decision to make Small a reliever might look crazy, considering he's 9-0. But the Yankees love his ability to change speeds and work both sides of the plate, as well they should. One American League scout says, "[Small] is a perfect example of a guy maximizing his talent, considering he doesn't really have an out pitch. Kids could learn from him."
6. Klapisch makes the following point about Rivera (who is the real AL MVP):
http://tinyurl.com/ex8hf
[...]
The closer is on a pace for his highest innings total since 2001, many of them clearly wasted because of an appallingly bad bullpen. For the second time in five days, Rivera was rushed into a game the Yankees had led by at least seven runs.
The closer says, "This is my job, I have to do it," and was less than enthusiastic about having to rescue Embree. He pitched three games in a row last week against Tampa Bay and Toronto, and hinted that two more appearances against the Orioles are taking a toll, too.
When asked how much octane he'll have left in the AL Division Series, Rivera cryptically said, "We'll see" before adding, "Hopefully, we'll have a blowout soon."
7. Holy shit, Max, good call. ;-)
8. Yeah Matt, I'm sorry I didn't see that one with you guys either. It is easy to lose that one in the crowd, but it isn't every day when a right-handed hitter can plant one in the right field upper deck. A tremendous display of power.
9. I would like to believe that we have seen the last of Alan Embree after last night, but dumber things have happened.
If Colter Bean makes an appearance before the Yankees play their last game, I'll eat my hat. But I'll be happy about it.
10. I hate Embree, get rid of him. If he can't get lefties out, get rid of him today. His 2nd life in NY is going to kill the Yanks.
11. Hey Rich, that was scary. Same thing happened with Shaun P last week...I think we're all hanging out here and channeling each other now. :-)
12. I'm concerned that Moose is being rushed back. He seems to have an open mind about it. I guess Torre doesn't:
http://tinyurl.com/99tx7
[...]
It means that Chien-Ming Wang, who pitched eight strong innings Monday, will have to wait longer than the usual four days before his next start. That is a tribute to Mussina's reputation. The club easily could have passed him over.
"I wouldn't have been offended," Mussina said. "We're here to win and go to the playoffs. I'm not foolish enough to say that I have to be the one. In the situation the team is in, you don't want to do anything that would hurt our chances. I want to be involved and obviously I want to contribute. But we've done some nice things and I don't want to mess it up."
13. Good point Rich, and another reason a win today is so damned crucial...tomorrow is extremely high risk with Moose being rushed back.
The running joke around Boston these days is that Theo might be having a very tough year (shortstop and many pitchers haven't worked out), but his best move has been luring the Yanks into taking Embree.
14. I have never seen Mo's expression look as weary as last night. Arg.
On the bright side, I have to believe that is the last we will see of Embree this year.
15. Nice recap Alex.
Cano's Hollywood play kind of steamed me. You would think that playing next to Jeter would eliminate that.
Tough to see the Roberts play. Good guy and great season. As for these relievers (middle relief), they all stink. I have nothing to add to the posts already. They just stink. Mo could indeed be our MVP this season if you literally take the award as the "Most Valuable Player".
16. Jeter hit an opposite field upperdeck HR about a month ago against Texas. It was in that unwatchable friday night game Leiter pitched.
"His 14th home run of the season -- also to right, this time into the upper deck --"
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap?gid=250812110
17. I had a bit of a different take on the Cano play. As I was watching, it looked to me like he was trying to be extra careful and not throw the ball away (which obviously would have been worse). Maybe he underestimated the speed on the basepaths, but he has thrown the ball away a few times this season because of rushing a play or hot dogging it. I would have liked to see the out, but I appreciate that he seemed to stop and think about it for a change.
18. The Cano play didn't bug me as muchh as Embree forcing Rivera to come into the game. I'm still pissed at Embree not being able to shoulder a little bit of the load for the TEAM.
Alex was right on with this: "one which left me feeling more frustrated than pleased"
I want Embree out, I was even pissed that Cano, Jeter and Tino came and gave Embree an atta-boy on the mound when Torre came out to remove him.
19. I will say this about the relief core, they didn't give up any walks yesterday. They were definitely pitching to the score.
20. Another thing to worry about with Rivera is that he's headed for his highest season pitch total since 1996, when he pitched 108 innings.
21. Alex and the boys, and girls.
All this hyperventilated banter concerning Rivera harkens me back to a comment I made a few days ago, and have been pushing for some time.
The bullpen is garbage, right? We didn't just figure this out this week, right?
My weeks old recommendation would have had Leiter, Wang, or Wright available last night, at the very least Wright and Leiter. Now, we know Mo is working quite a bit, why not have Leiter or Wright, or now Wang --you guys disagree with my reasoning for Wang in the pen over Small, I know, but bear with me--finish that game out. We had a 7 run lead and 4 innings to go! Wright could have finished it, Leiter could have finished it (Leiter has been ok outta the pen, don't jump all over me), Wang could have finished it. I mean all of it, just because it's the 9th inning doesn't mean Joe has to go to a classified "reliever," does it? It's Ok to have the same gent' who started the 6th finish it off, isn't it? Does it break one of baseball's laws or something?
Here is what I said:
"This will never fly, but I like a 4 man-right now. Considering the junk in the pen, I think it's wise. I implore you to listen Joe, I am channelling it to you right now. Ah oooom Ah oooom.
Randy
Moose
Chacon
Small
Move Wright up if Moose can't go, but I gots' me a good feeling about Mr. Northern Exposure.
Wang, Leiter, and Wright in the Pen to get to GorMo. This also provides some needed rest for Gordon. Wang can go long if necessary. I know, I know, you're thinking, didn't you see Wang last night? Well yes, yes I did, and at 96 MPH, with solid fielding and a near mechanical ground ball machine for an arm, I think he makes more sense in the pen, especially in games that Chacon or Small start. It's much more difficult for hitters to adjust from a steady diet of beaking pitches at 70-85 MPH, to Wang's $5 a Gallon GAS. If Small deteriorates, bang, there is Wang to pick up the pieces. If that occurs more than once, you can move Small to the pen, but I stand by my 96 MPH ground ball gobblin helping where we need him most.
Leiter for lefties, mop up duty, win or lose, when necessary, and Wright when Gordon and Mo need a rest, he can go 6-9 if needed, give or take, and keep Mo resting when the lead is 3 or more. I don't want to get to the post season with a less than 100% Rivera, do you?
Use Mendoza and Sturtz only in "break glass" emergency, never use Embree, Hernandez, Franklin, or Proctor. I know they're on the roster, but next year would be a much more apt time to "fiddle" with their mechanics. The devil aint going down to that bullpen, lookin' for a lead to steal.
We have 8-9 decent options, why are we using anyone else at all? I'm befuddled.
Bullpen problem solved!
Stormer Sports for president, "No New Taxes, Ok Ok, No New Ticket Prices at the Staduim!"
22. I wish I could remember where I saw it - maybe one of Steven Goldman's excellent chats with the guys in Trenton? But someone said that some scouts and some executives know nothing - not their names, not their abilities, nothing - about most of the guys in the minors.
Now Bean pitched in the majors this year, and he was taken by the Red Sox last year in the Rule V draft and then returned. That means SOMEONE in the organization at least knows his name, and maybe what his abilities are. Ditto Jason Anderson, who was traded away and then re-signed.
Understatement of the season - is it possible that whoever is making the decisions right now doesn't know who Colter Bean, Jason Anderson, Matt DeSalvo, and Ben Julianel are, or anything about them?
23. Shaun,
Next year baby! Hopefully we can get some of these guys up.
We may all however be suffering from "grass is always greener" syndrome, with respect to pitchers we haven't seen yet.
Didn't Bean get shelled in his one 2 inning appearance?
24. "I will say this about the relief core, they didn't give up any walks yesterday. They were definitely pitching to the score."
Well, that's one way of looking at it. Problem is that in both the Toronto and Baltimore games, pitching with a huge lead from the 5th inning on, "pitching to the score" meant giving up 10 extra base hits and 20 hits overall. (5 doubles in each game after the 5th inning)
One could only dream of our offense being this productive on a regular basis...which it would be if it faced the meatball pitchers we have in middle relief.
25. Of course people in the organization (by which you must mean Tampa) "know" about guys like Bean, DeSalvo, Julianel, etc. Of course Cashman would like to utilize these guys and has, I remind you, already sent many of them up only to have them rubber-stamped by Torre/Mel and "returned to sender" after being given a whole inning or two to demonstrate their "lack of experience." I don't know why many of you can't see that there's one big reason why these guys aren't being used: Torre's insistence on "veteran experience." He has always preferred the Wayne Franklins and Alan Embrees of the world to (fill in the blank) from the farm system. Also, because of Torre, the Yankees are very, very conservative in promoting players...rarely does anyone come up from AA much less High A ball. I'm sure Torre's excuse would be that he has no time to develop players on the major league level. I guess only Bobby Cox has the spare time. After all, why try to develop the next Miguel Cabrera or Jeff Francoeur when you have experienced veterans like Ruben Sierra and Rey Sanchez.
26. You know what, as far as the MVP goes, whether I agree with this or not, I think the bottom line is that the award will be decided on the final weekend of the year. If the Sox go to the playoffs, Ortiz gets it, if the Yanks go, Rodriguez gets it. And if they both get in--which seems unlikely--it'll depend on how plays better over the next week and a half.
27. JohnnyC, there's a lot of truth to what you're saying. That certainly is a big strike against Torre and Mel.
I think I've said this before, but the onus then is on Cashman to deprive Torre and Mel of "experienced" players, giving them no choice.
He should DFA Embree and Franklin and otherwise despose of F-Rod and Ramiro "why am I here - I haven't pitched in 3 weeks and I have experience" Mendoza. Once those actions are done, they can't be reversed, right?
BTW Stormer, Bean gave up one run in his two innings of work - not a shelling at all.
28. Torre says Embree's stuff is good. Plan to see a few more appearances from him.
nypost.com
Scott Proctor served up Jay Gibbons' two-run homer in the seventh, and Gordon surrendered a run in the eighth. Embree, who owns the distinction of being horrible with the Red Sox and Yankees in the same year, was charged with another two runs in the ninth.
"He's had experience at the top level and he's done well," said Torre, who chatted with him after the game. "His stuff is good.
"You look up there and his [velocity] numbers are right where they should be. We just need for him to make better pitches."
29. "He's had experience at the top level and he's done well," said Torre, who chatted with him after the game. "His stuff is good.
"You look up there and his [velocity] numbers are right where they should be. We just need for him to make better pitches."
AGGGHHHH! Comments like those are what makes me know Torre has to go next year. I have always supported the guy, but this team simply needs to move on, and he is not the guy to have on a team that really needs to rebuild a bit. That whole "experience at the top level bs" and having good velocity doesn't mean crap if its coming in straight and flat and the hitters are teeing off on you. Its not like Embree has had some good outings or anything, he's washed up!
That, and the inexcusable, predictable panicing that sends him to Rivera when there is a hint of danger, which of course might not be there had he not trusted one of his "warriors" in the first place.
Can you imagine where Torre would be if he hadn't had Mo these last 10 years? That alone is case for his cy young/myp right there.
30. Shaun, I would love Cashman to pull rank on Torre and do precisely that. Even if you grant that George is behind all the off-season moves (and we have no reliable proof that it's true...Cash himself said Gene Michael was the one who lobbied hardest to sign Womack), Cashman's work in-season this year has been exemplary, most notably force-feeding Cano and Wang on Torre. But, given Torre's "alibi" that he has nothing whatsoever to do with personnel decisions (you know, no dinner at Malio's), any such action by Cashman would be seen as Cash undermining a man with 4 rings, baby. Plus, I truly believe Cashman likes Torre and is conflicted everytime Torre chooses a veteran, wash-up guy like Embree or Sierra or Wayne Franklin over anyone at all from the system. A lot of media bushwa has been written about how George(and Tampa)is an impediment to Cashman, not enough has been written about how Torre and Mel have dynamited almost every pitching acquisition Brian has made, making him look bad while Mel gets away, leaving no fingerprints.
31. JohhnyC
really great post.
32. Makes you miss the days of Sparky Lyle and Goose Gossage. God Bless Mo.
33. So I presume that was the reason they sent Benitez packing, 98MPH not good enough velocity Joe? Proctor can hit 98, no Joe?
If last night didn't end Embree's tenure, I will support my manager no more.
When does he presume Embree will make better pitches? He has one pitch, a fastball, that's it, the others are garbage.
As Orel Hershiser says, in regard to Major League Pitchers: (This presumes consistent control, i.e., you can throw it where you want it, when you want it, and at what speed you want it) over the pitch, mind you.
If you have one pitch, you can compete.
If you have two pitches, you can win.
If you have three pitches, you can dominate.
I have always believed that, and it's born out by the numbers. With Rivera's addittion of the 2 seam for righties, this explains why he is better now than he was even 5 years ago. The above is why Mo can dominate with less velocity, he can throw, with control, his fastball, cutter, or 2 seam, anywhere, at any time, to any location.
Maddux in his prime never even hit 92!
Embree does not even have control over his one pitch, his fastball, and hense, he cannot even compete in this league, nor can Proctor with his, or Franklin with his stuff.
Joe, Velocity has not one God Damned thing to do with it, pull your head out of your ass! There are likely 100+ guys in the minors that can throw 98-100 MPH, go take your fucking pick! Maybe you can pick up Brian Bruney from the D'Backs.
Someone posted yesterday a want to actually sign guys who throw strikes and pitch, with less concern over velocity, I want to offer you your props for being so right, alas, it won't happen, "GM's and managers love the fastball."
At least as a manger, Ted Williams flat out said he hates pitchers and doesn't want anything to do with them. He conceded his distaste and admitted he knows nothing about the art of pitching. An ass hole to be sure, but honest nonetheless.
It would behoove Joe to admit he doesn't have the slightest clue concerning pitching, and just come to grips with it, we can accept it, then we wouldn't have to hear, over and over, "his velocity is fine."
34. Perhaps Joe thinks that Embree is going to pull a '96 Graeme Lloyd: being absolutely atrocious in the regular season, and unhittable in the postseason. That is, if Embree doesn't blow the division/WC first.
35. JohnnyC, 30 was dead on. But, Cashman has four rings too, three as GM - you'd think someone in the media would stick up for the guy if he pulled rank on Joe.
I guess I can't blame Cashman if he doesn't. In terms of getting another job, pulling rank on 'the saintly Joe Torre' would probably be a big mistake - unless his new employer let him pick the manager, but who knows that in advance?
At this point, I expect Cashman to run far, far away after Oct. 31 - and I'll sure miss him.
36. We can't put it all on Joe, although I would have been more eloquent above, with a few less "fuckings."
However, he is the ultimate decision-maker, and obviously neither Mel or Girardi (who presumably knows pitching pretty well) is advising him, speaking up and risking the possible fallout, as to his bull pen and rotation, possible moves, changes, experiments and the like.
Mel and Girardi have to know what we are doing isn't right. For God's sake, even John Kruk gets it.
37. And Stormer, you took (some of) the words right out of my mouth.
Ricky Williams-level wishful thinking - since George will probably try to get Leo Mazzone this offseason, maybe ex-Yankee Bobby Cox could be had as well?*
*And yes, I know Cox would be %#(&in' nuts to leave what he has in Atlanta. Both of them, for that matter.
38. Man, everytime Joe summons Proctor, I feel that a 'proctologist' should also enter the game because the Yanks are about to take it in the shorts. Geesus he is terrible and Embree - we can only hope he is given the last seat in the bullpen. You know, someone mentioned Mendoza - it's been so long since I saw him I forgot all about him - that should be the case with Scottie and Wayne-O.
39. I don't get this entire Cashman/Torre thing and force-feeding Torre players. It seems both men have a good working relationship, they respect each other and constantly talk about what is best for the team. I agree that any talk of Torre giving Embree another chance should cause Torre to be put into a mental institution - has he even watched the games this a-hole has pitched in? I love Torre, but pah-fucken-lease, cut Embree loose already.
I really don't think now is the right time to see who is the best for the bullpen, Torre is not the GM, Torre can't say call this guy up or that other guy, that's the GM's role. Cashman called up Melky and Torre used him right away - despite having the veteran Bernie Williams on the team. I'm sure all managers believe in guys who have been there before and have performed well under pressure, I guess their philosophy is that eventually they'll wake up and play well under that high pressure environment. Torre is no different, look at Pinella's use of Borowski instead of the younger Orvella. The Devil Rays aren't even in the playoff race, but managers constantly stick with veteran guys till they feel they are entirely washed up. Orvella has a good arm and could eventually be a great set-up man or closer, but Pinella feels he'll rather use Borowski - even though he'll be there only till the end of this year (possibly).
Managing isn't always a numbers game as we like to make it, most of us are geeks of some form of fantasy sports (myself included). We dissect numbers trying to gain an advantage, managers do that too, and for the most part try and use that philosophy most of the team. BUT, when they feel the numbers aren't telling you what your 'gut' is then that's the overriding factor. For example, look at Jack McKeon last night. He elected to walk Piazza and force the rookie Jacobs to beat him. Piazza is not anywhere near the player he once was, but since he's had so many big hits before the fear of him getting that key hit strikes fear in McKeon's heart. So he decides to say f- the righty-lefty match up, let me have my righty face their rookie left handed hitter. Jacobs gets the winning hit, Mets win the game. Pie in McKeon's face. Managing is not an exact science and never will be, most of the time managing is doing what you feel is right and puts your team in the best position to win the game. Sometimes you fail, sometimes you lose. Even the great managers as people often like to cite don't have the pedigree (4 championships) of Torre: Pinella, Cox or Larussa. But they are constantly hailed as being better and I never really understood what that means. However, I'm sure someone will tell me. It's like someone saying that a certain 3rd base coach is awful, really??? Well, tell me who is a great 3rd base coach? Everything is based off our perception and short term memory on the recent failures as opposed to looking at the entire body of work. If managing were that easy, we'd all have at least one chance to manage. Managing requires more than looking at numbers, the other half I'll never understand and never make it seem as if do either. BTW, I wasn't implicating anyone with my rant either.
That said, let's go RJ. Get your Panama Noriega face going tonight and let's see a 10K CG.
40. Any defense of Embree is damn inexcusable...it makes me sick that he might be there at the end to throw away our playoff chances.
Who are the pitchers stewing away in our farm system (besides Bean) that would have been worth nurturing through some rough outings in order to become solid, situational contributors? I certainly was not impressed by Graman or Henn, and the former has long been a Tampa favorite.
I'm seriously curious about the options we've walked away from in favor of the dregs we've got currently.
41. The only "good stuff" that Embree has is good for the hitters and very bad for the Yankees!
42. Stormer, the problem is...he IS getting advice from Mel.
43. Johnny,
I just cannot believe that Mel is Ok'ing the use of Embree.
44. I agree, Mel is purposely making Embree throw straight fastballs and forcing him to hang his curveballs to sabotage any chance the Yankees have of making the playoffs.
45. Burnt Embree
I'm not much of a couch-manager, I prefer to remain in zen-like (scared) silence and allow the game to unfold, but I can say I was pretty surprised to see Embree in the game last night. And even more suprised to see the infield giving him the ol' pat on the butt support when Torre lifted him. And today Torre is stressing the positive. Who knows?
Embree doesn't seem very effective, maybe Torre thought it was a pretty safe situation to try to build the guys confidence. Maybe the guy's dog is dying so everyone is being understanding when he can't get it done. It's definetly peculiar though. And from what I'm reading above, I'm hardly the only one left dreaming up rationales.
46. Dimelo,
Piniella doesn't use Orvella that much because he has only recently been converted to relieving, having been a position player in college and a starter in his brief pro career. He has difficulty warming up quick enough to pitch every day so Lou stays away from using him more than every 3rd game or so. Don't characterize Piniella as a "veterans" type of guy because he isn't. In fact, he's the one who publicly called for the FO to bring up every viable prospect they have instead of storing them in the minors like Delmon Young. Young among others hasn't gotten a chance because management doesn't want to start his free agent clock yet. Piniella is absolutely in favor of promoting from within...his only gripe is that Tampa Bay will not increase the payroll enough for him to get some established major league pitchers. What, does Johnny Gomes bear any resemblance to the Yankees' favorite DH, Ruben Sierra?
47. I am still lobbying the team to give Arod a shot with Mel to see if he can pitch as well.
I am only half kidding. He has a rocket arm and is quite an athlete. Hey, the Babe did it.
Then maybe we can put to rest the "Bonds is the best player ever" talk.
Again, I am half kidding.
48. JohnnyC, Isn't the real reason Pinella is in favor of promoting from within is because that's all he has going for him? A rich farm system. I don't remember him putting his trust in unexperienced pitchers/players in Cincy or Seattle? I also remember Pinella keeping Ben Grieve and Fred McGriff in the lineup even though they stunk. Can't the same be said for Huff too? He hasn't exactly been tearing up the joint.
49. How 'bout SportsCenter admiring Manny's 430 foot shot last night as if he was Babe Ruth, oooh ahhh, wow Stewart, gimme that nightly Jay Z reference.
For the record, hitters are better athletes today than they once were, so:
Can we stop staring at home runs as of they are somehow god-like, spectacular, when they wouldn't even have been out of Yankee Stadium when Babe Ruth played, seriously, can we? Is 430 feet really that far for a so-called slugger?
For the record, in 1927: The dimensions of the field were 281 feet to the left field foul pole, 415 feet to leftfield, 490 feet to left-center, 487 feet to centerfield, 429 feet to right-center, 344 feet to right field, and 295 feet to the right field foul pole.
It aint Fenway, is it Manny?
In the alternative, better to admire a shot like Arod's last night, at least it was rare, albeit pretty darn spectacular.
50. Petco is the only park to come close, and, they 'taint even that close.
51. No offense, Stormer, but do we really care what the dimesions were in 1927? A 430 foot shot is a pretty long homerun, so was Ortiz 2nd shot. I liked ARod's too. I actually find homeruns that barely clear the wall, like Sheffields GS, more exciting to watch.
Though I do agree that sportscenter has digressed in its reporting of sports news. If you want to consider yourself a credible news source, why do you constantly have to inject us with all these catch-phrases from pop culture? Though I do love watching PTI and Tony Kornheiser.
52. Dimelo.
I do care, sorry. It diminishes the accomplishments of former players. If this was made clear more often to viewers, then no, I wouldn't care.
53. Dimelo,
Without thise catch phrases, how would Stuart Scott have spent the last 10 years trying to prove he is in touch with the inner city, a place he neither grew up near, or ever visits?
It's like any other business, once you are at the top, have little real competition, you get lazy, as ESPN has. ESPN Hollywood, nuff said.
54. There have been a lot of 'final straws' for me in regards to taking SportsCenter seriously, but one of the more recent ones was Alex Mortensen's 5 yard, garbage time TD toss in a 63-17 loss to USC this past weekend being named one of Boomer's Plays of the Week.
Know what made it special? Absolutely nothing, save for the fact that young Alex's daddy Chris is on the Bristol payroll...
Disclaimer: The individual TVs on the cardio machines at my gym tune to CNN/ESPN/VH1, so I tend to watch much more SC than I can stomach. (I prefer to read the news, and not ingest whatever crap they're passing off as pop music these days.)
55. Knuckles,
Amen.
56. Knuckles,
Time to find a new gym.
It appears you cannot get real news, real sports coverage, or real music, yikes.
57. No, Woemack was an Oppenheimer signing:
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/46171.htm
[...]
In this case, Cashman offered updates on his negotiations with Nero about second baseman Miguel Cairo. Cashman was thinking one year with an option for $1.5 million plus bonuses. Nero wanted two years at better than $4 million.
Suddenly Damon Oppenheimer, the Yankees' Tampa-based VP/director of scouting, said, "For that kind of money we could get [Tony] Womack." And with that began the unstoppable momentum of going from having Womack hardly on the Yankee radar screen, especially among the New York executives, to all but signed by the end of the workday for $4 million over two years.
58. FWIW, According to Bill Madden on M and the MD:
Given George's aging process, he is no longer hands on, and he listens to the last person he speaks to, which is now Connors, Emslie, and Oppenheimer. Cashman has very little decision making authority, and Stick has virtually no power because the Tampa people convinced George that the Yankees lost to the the Sox in the ALCS last year as a result of Stick's poor scouting reports.
59. All I know is I heard Cashman himself pin it on Stick on WFAN. Though it did sound like Cash was making an effort to throw Stick under the bus, some internal politics perhaps.
Whatever, it's a big mess, and now is not the time to gripe about it. There'll be plenty of time for countin' when the dealin's done.
I would, however, like to gripe about this, from that very informative NYTimes article Alex linked to:
"Torre said of Wright. 'You brought him here for a reason, and that reason is he's proven, especially in postseason, pressure stuff. You don't want to discount that.'"
Jaret Wright's post season stats:
3-5 7.34 ERA career
0-4 in his last four starts dating back to 1998.
All three wins coming in 1997 (eight years ago when he was a 21-year-old rookie with no surgery scars on his pitching shoulder), two of them against . . . Joe Torre's Yankees.
That and the Embree quote from earlier in these comments are all the evidence you need that there's no one steering this ship. If this team makes the postseason it will be despite the manager and the front office, not because of them.
60. That's why I love it when Mushnick constantly rips into ESPN. ESPN is more shtick than news.
61. Didn't George turn over day to day control to his son-in-law? Does anyone have good information on how lucid The Boss is?
I wonder what the direction will be next year, if George would continue the "gotta win this year 'cause I won't be around mentally next year." If SiL is in charge, he might take a better look at the bottom line, and keep Wang, Cano, and Bubba.
62. Rich,
I just find that hard to believe. George is smarter than that.
Maybe I'm wrong, not questioning Madden unfairly but, it seems awfully convenient.
Further, fisrt Reggie's comments, "didn't recognize me," and now Madden's, "aging process," sounds to me like a lot of speculation and conjecture.
If he knew something, he would come out and say it. I posit that "aging process" means: "I think George is in bad shape based on some unsubstantiated reports and comments, and because it would be so difficult for me to say that, I am going to say something that is intentioanlly intended to give people the impression that George's mind is breaking down, without actually having the either the balls to say it, the contacts to verify it, any facts to back it up, or the self control not to serve the needs of my program by saying, I don't know."
Sickening, he's a grown man and the owner of my club, treat him with some fucking respect until you have something to tell me.
"Convinced George that . . . ." Also, don't insinuate and seek to confuse us with some half-baked idea based on irresponsible guesses that George is in such a condition that he can now be "convinced" of things as if he is a small child. This American idea of connecting aging inseperably with infantile helplessness, both physical and mental is riduculous. This is not to say that George ia A'OK, but that Madden is displaying the penchant to assume such patronizing ideas is wrong and insulting.
My grandfather is 99 and is more articulate and lucid than I am. Not everyone is that lucky, but being old, does not mean stupid, helpless or childlike, I smelled that American proclivity there and had to react.
The man is George Steinbrenner, and until you hear or are provided something credible, see something with your own eyes, or hear from his son, shut your fucking mouths, it's disgusting, sad, selfish, self promoting behavior at someone elses expense, stop it.
63. Did you guys watch the press conference that announced the construction of the new stadium?
George did not appear to be mentally robust. Also, he rarely makes public statements directly to the media anymore, instead relying on his PR person.
I have no idea what the true state of affairs is, but I think there is reason to believe in may be declining mentally.
64. Here's another observation: George used to look to copy successful trends in other organizations. Last year, the Sox used sabermetric thinking to aid their effort to win the WS. Beane has used it successfully over the last decade as well. Why don't the Yankees have any SABR guys?
65. Well, there was the big Michael Kay interview. Controlled environment, but he did seem a tad off. Still, was George ever mentally stable?
66. btw, Stormer, almost no one is as lucky as your grandfather.
67. I think Cliff is closer to the truth...there's at least a 3 or 4 sided battle over organizational decisions. Tampa is not a united front against Cashman or Torre or Michael or us, the fans. Mark Newman hates Gene Michael, yes, but Gene Michael is not enamored of Joe Torre either and Brian Cashman has his reasons to dislike Bill Emslie (David Ortiz) and Damon Oppenheimer (taking over the draft). And they all think Billy Connors is a spy for George. And, let us not forget, the Tampa faction hated George for forcing them to draft Drew Henson, so much so that Bucky Dent had to summon George to columbus to tell him that the hitting coach wouldn't work with Henson (apparently under orders from Newman, who wanted Henson gone). LOL. Finger-pointing is not unique to the Yankees' front office and I also don't suppose any of us would be honest enough to own up to our really stupid decision(s)if we worked in a similar position of such visibility as do the bickerstaffs who inhabit the Yankees' house.
68. Rich,
You say: "I have no idea what the true state of affairs is, but I think there is reason to believe in[he] may be declining mentally."
Sure, it may be the case, but it just digresses into speculation and the like. I know I may be overreacting but it bugs the hell out of me.
What "reason to belive he is declining?" What are people basing this on, some Dr. Phil analysis of a press conference through the TV?
I guess my last point is this: What if he is? What if it's true? Won't we all feel horrible that we put our needs, our imagination, the news' need to entertain, "professional" journalists above ethics, all for what? We put all this above what really should be important, a man who may or may not be suffering, may or may not!"
If he is, I for one place that far above our current pitching woes. George has given us quite a bit, can't we give him this much, some respect, and patience to wait until we get something concrete to go on? Am I asking too much?
69. Rich,
I hate to lose my fellow Joe basher so I better lay off you:)
"btw, Stormer, almost no one is as lucky as your grandfather."
Yea, but George aint 99.
70. Incidentally, I think Oppy did a great job with the draft this year. A couple of huge upside tools guys out of high school and a ton of college pitchers.
71. Stormer,
This is neurology, not psychology. My personal observation, which is not worth much, is that there is a change in George's public demeanor. We're not talking about proof, merely a hunch.
72. Pitchers,
Cliff,
I agree, as to the draft.
Oscar like Pitchers! Pitchers Stop Cookie Monster!
The Count is another matter altogether, but Snuffalufogous is a terror on the base-paths.
73. Bill Madden recently wrote that George got gonorrhea from a crackhead, an unnamed source told him. I thought he was foaming at the mouth and scratching a lot.
I believe him too. :-)
74. Rich,
Ok, I am officially off my high horse.
Can we get back to bashing Joe now?
75. Holy shit people! Everyone complains when Torre uses TanGorMo in blowouts and then he attempts to have Proctor and Embree close the game out yesterday, then everyone complains because they couldn't do the job. If you are going to continually second guess, at least stay consistent.
Put the blame where it belongs, on the players.
p.s. The Yankees won yesterday and I believe they have the best record in the AL since mid May. They will make the playoffs.
I can't imagine what would be going on in the comments section if they actually had a bad year.
76. The point is that Madden's report has been echoed by other sources. They may or may not be accurate.
Embree sucks. Anyone can see that. The Sox waived him for a reason.
77. Cliff re: 59 - that plus Stormer's 33 plus JohnnyC's excellent 30 has convinced me - its time for Torre to hang 'em up.
Torre has 4 rings and does many things well. Utilizing his personnel to maximize the Yanks' chances of winning is no longer one of those things. And that is his primary job as manager.
I believe the Yanks will make the playoffs, and it will be in spite of poor decisions made by the front office and by Torre.
A World Series win this year would be the Yanks' greatest accomplishment since '98 - 'cause they've never shot themselves so badly before.
78. Rich.
"The point is that Madden's report has been echoed by other sources. They may or may not be accurate."
"They may or may not be accurate." As I've said before, sports reporters have the same ethical obligations as every other journalist.
Exactly why they should shut it!
79. Stormer,
All baseball writers are in effect gossip columnists. I think speculation comes with the territory.
80. How do you boys and girls get the links and the bold, underline to appear on the site? Am I missing something?
81. Rich,
Ok Ok, but shouldn't we be better than that?
Like I said, back to bashing Joe, I'm sure he is in good health.
82. Torre should hang it up, but rest assured that if the Yankees somehow win the WS, the media will give him the lion's share of the credit.
83. Stormer,
I think it's fair to discuss media speculation on a message board.
84. Stormer, it took me months to figure it out:
an * on each side = bold
an _ on each side = underline
to link back to a comment in the same thread, say #80, just put its number in square brackets ([x] where x=80)
85. Rich, that's the worst part of it all - they'll be winning despite him, not because of him, as you've said before.
86. It's like you will all feel much better if they lose so you can blame Torre, as opposed to if they win and not be able to pin the anything on Torre. You guys make Torre sound like FEMA for christ sake.
87. No, we think that if Torre didn't use Sturtze, Gordon, and to a lesser extent Rivera with 5+ run leads in May, June, and July, and showed some patience with young pitchers, Sturtze and Gordon wouldn't have tired arms in September, and they would be fresher for the playoffs. He did the same thing last season with Quantrill.
Also, the thought of losing Po's bat in one out of every four playoff games, let alone important regular season games down the stretch is absurd. It's time to let him catch RJ.
One more point: Handedness doesn't trump ability, and experience doesn't trump ability.
88. btw, FEMA f'ed up royally. Even Bush admits that now.
89. Rich,
Sometimes I think you just like the word "handedness," am I wrong?
It is an odd concept, it comes up every time I see a lefty face Matsui, I scream "don't you know he hits lefties better than righties?" More proof that managers love it, Rich's handedness that is, even when the notebook says otherwise.
Joe aint Bo, he "don't know pitching."
Shaun,
Thanks
90. Rich
"we're making progress in this part of the world" re: The Gulf.
"we're making progress in that part of the world." re: Iraq
"we're working hard" re: Every policy of the administation.
Watching Bush is like watching a kid give a book report, only he hasn't read the book.
If anyone needs ice, it's in Maine, the trucks that left 4 weeks ago finally settled there last night. Too much I tell ya, too much.
91. The word reminds me of simpler days when I was in grad school.
92. On the other hand, Stormer,
The Yankees must "stay the course."
93. Rich,
They give graduate degrees in negativity?
Do they call it an MNA?
94. Rich,
Under the desk, with no hands.
The Yankees need to "Build a bridge to the 2005 World Series."
95. The Yankees do have a few SABR guys, Messers Rodriguez and Sheffield, and Giambi come to mind.
96. Dimelo, I take no joy in seeing the Yanks lose.
(I can't believe I'm typing this, but) Torre isn't FEMA, he's Bush. (The Yanks may end up being FEMA, though I don't think that will happen.)
Torre's various moves (and his comments on moves he's going to make) have clearly put the Yanks in a prime position to lose. In some games, its like they've been down 3-0 before a pitch is thrown.
Similarly, Bush's incompetent staffing moves put FEMA in position to screw up - which it did, and which I'm also quite unhappy about.
Don't you think we have legitimate gripes? Go back and read what Cliff wrote in 59. Torre is saying Wright gets to keep pitching in must-win games because of his 'successful' 3-5, 7.34 postseason record and ERA. Those numbers do not equal success, now or ever.
In all seriousness, some of the stuff escaping Joe's mouth lately is straight from Bizarro World.
97. Psychology = negativity
98. Psych?
Rich,
I am having strange feeling towards my mother, what do they mean, Yankees will win?
99. Any word on Roberts? Is he going to be all right?
Roberts is apparently a good friend of Bubba Crosby's. They're supposed to go out to lunch together when the Yanks are in Baltimore next week. Bubba better pick up the tab.
Ted Robinson of NBC Sports thinks the Yanks will win the division and the Red Sox will go home. He also thinks Torre is doing a terrific job:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9409642/
"I think the Yankees will be in first place in the A.L. East by the time they get to Fenway Park for the final three games of the regular season.
Midway through September it's the Yankees who have the momentum, and it's the Red Sox who are floundering.
The Yankees have had a terrific second half of the season, which in part is a testament to Joe Torre's managing. This season Torre has probably done the best job of managing in his career.
I could see a scenario where the Yankees will need to win only one of the three games in Boston. And if that turns out to be the case, the division is theirs as the Red Sox will not be able to manage a sweep -- even with the homefield advantage."
However, he doesn't think the Yankees will make it far in the post-season. They'll just be too exhausted.
100. Shaun,
Torre is "working hard" and "it's a hard job" and "he's making progress."
101. Maybe this is the explanation for Torre's fascination for Embree:
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B06220SDN2002.htm
That was quite a pitching performance -- of course it was more than three years ago, and THIS YEAR his ERA was over 7 when the Sox cut him!!!!
102. Lawton in right. Oy.
103. Regarding the draft this year, y didnt yankees draft Craig Hansen? I read he has great stuff for a closer. and he recently pitched in last mondays boston game. Obviously red sox is desperate to bring a player drafted this year to the majors, but he also must've impressed red sox front office with his stuff. Considering Yankees had the higher pick than red sox in the draft, y wasnt he drafted? I mean it would be nice to have a closer after Mo retires. And i understand hansen might be a bust.
104. Hansen is a Boras client, lots of teams were scared of that, though why the Yanks would beats me. Their #1 priority wasn't closer I think mostly, and the guy they got in the second round is pretty good as well. The thing is that the college pitcher type fits well into middle relief to start with, but we refuse to trust our kids
105. Kazmir's not at his best tonight, but I think RJ will deliver a win.