>> “You don’t need a college degree to love this game.” >>

Or to manage a team to a championship, for that matter. Heyman can be a real d*ck sometimes.

Interesting, I had a totally different negative reaction to that passage. I always bristle when baseball announcers/players/managers/writers make a big deal about someone using a word that might be unfamiliar to your average sixth-grader because I don't think a well-rounded vocabulary should be treated as something unusual. It should be the norm rather than the exception. Maybe I'm a college-educated, ivory tower, east coast, elitist intellectual, but I think the level of discourse in this country in general, and particularly surrounding sports in this country, is far too low. I know one of my goals here at Banter and in my other baseball writing is to raise that level of discourse. Maybe you didn't know the definition of erudite when you read that article, but you do now, and your vocabulary is now more robust as a result. I see that only as a good thing. But I bristled at that passage, not because I thought Heyman was being showy in his language, or even because I thought he was insulting Manuel (though he was), but because it reinforced the sense that having a half-way decent vocabulary is something that's exceptional, when it should be commonplace. In a way it goes back my disagreement with Jesse Jackson's old remark that to ignore race is racist. To me, defeating racism means getting to the point at which race is irrelevant. Oohing and aahing at Maddon whenever he uses a three-syllable word "correctly" is evidence of the soft bigotry of low expectations. We should expect people to be well-spoken and not be surprised when they are. Unfortunately, our standards for language are far too low.

Proper word usage when speaking to reporters is pretty far down the list in terms of manager skills that lead to wins.

I think Maddon is neat, and I like that the press seems to treat him well. Anti-intellectualism is alive and well among the baseball press - just look at FireJoeMorgan.com - which is a shame.

At the same time, there's no reason to put down Charlie Manuel, who, BTW, is able to speak Japanese. I wonder if Heyman can do that.

Todd, Apparently one doesn't need to go to college to understand the word 'erudite" either; you just need a dictionary.

Heyman can be an ass at times but I think this was more about talking up Maddon than talking down Manuel. I would let that guy bother you. Besides after having read your stuff since you started YFJ I'm not sure he's capable of talking down to you anyway.

[4] Grrrr ...... that should read "I *wouldn't* let that guy bother you."

Agreed, the cheap shot at Manuel was totally uncalled for and inappropriate. My point is that the paragraph shouldn't have been written to start with because it shouldn't have struck Heyman as special that Maddon can speak well. Not to bring race back into it, but if either manager was black, that note couldn't have been written without appearing racist. If it's bigoted to express surprise that a man can speak well just because he's black, then isn't it also bigoted to express surprise that a man can speak well just because he's a baseball manager?

[6]

I was also wondering about the "race' angle ... glad you brought it up.

I don’t think having a robust vocabulary makes anyone a better or worse person. Having a robust understanding of every person’s situation makes us all better. Heyman’s intent was clearly to embarrass Manual. Inserting “college” was a dig at all of us who don’t come from families with the means to provide anything more than a public high school education.

Heyman is free to have these opinions. I just don’t think they should be carried by a baseball writer or any journalist. Maybe he should have gone into banking.

Heyman could have easily made the point about Maddon without mentioning Manuel. Journalists should not look down or talk down to anyone. They are supposed to provide a voice to the voiceless and fight injustice. Big words can’t do anything. Big ideas can change the world.

I don't think having a robust vocabulary makes anyone a better or worse person either, but I do think the better educated our society is the better our society will be. The quality of our public education needs to be improved (I attended only public schools myself, though I was fortunate to be in a strong school system), and we need to do more to help the children of less affluent families afford college (even though I did get to go to college, the price of tuition was the determining factor in my college choice as I chose to go to Rutgers in-state over going to a private out-of-state school with a better program for what I wanted to do). Beyond that, the same curiosity and desire for education that leads one to want to understand the lives of others should fuel a curiosity to self-educate in other ways.

What I find disturbing is the tendency in this country for people to be proud of their ignorance. I don't think anyone should be ashamed of a lack of education, but I don't think they should dig in their heals and say 'this is who I am," either. If the schools let you down, teach yourself, and fight for better education for those who come after you.

As for Heyman's use of "college," again, I read that more as mocking anti-intellectualism ("he used them big college words") than praise. I think the mention of Manuel was merely a lazy throw-away used to accent his point about Maddon being an oddball. Manuel was not the point of that note. I think he wound up insulting everyone, Maddon, Manuel, baseball men in general, and his readers.

To add a different take, I don't think Heyman's comment about Manuel was a cheap shot. Knowing Manuel's reputation, I took it as a joke, since the two represent two extremes (according to Heyman). I seriously doubt Heyman was trying to severely diss one of the managers of a World Series team during the World Series. Not really a great career move as a baseball journalist.

And I agree that the level of discourse in our society needs to be improved, but I don't think having a limited vocabulary is something to be ashamed of. Especially when it comes to sports.

Personally I just hate it when people use words they don't actually understand. Doesn't have much to do with College or education level as everyone has different circumstances. Smart people (graduates or not) look stupid when they use these words and its frustrating to read in print. I really don't see this as a jab at people without degrees.

I don’t think anyone is proud of ignorance. But people have to live with the hand they’re dealt. Access to quality education in this county – public or private – is determined by wealth. It took a week or so to find a trillion dollars to help save this country’s financial system. How long do you think it would take to get a trillion dollars to revamp this county’s public education system?

this post will probably be a bit scattered. my apologies if it is...

espn had a similar maddon/manuel vocabulary bit the other day. i think it was Tim K. who was praising maddon for using the simple word "irony" correctly whereas most managers can't. tim is always smiling and his inflection implied no badness, but still it was an odd piece...

heyman's article was not good, but i don't think he was talking down to anybody by using the word "erudite." i remember looking that word up years ago and loving what it meant. i wanted to one day be considered an erudite. (why isn't "erudicious" a word?!). i don't think it 's a very uncommon word. it's among my favorites along with egregious and penultimate. i remember exactly how, where and why i learned those last two words and todd will remember how, where and why he learned "erudite."

i don't think having a college education or being able to afford higher education has much to do with this. i had to get music scholarships to attend college and still needed 3 families to help offset remaining costs. plus, going to school for Classical Music doesn't quite concentrate on 50-cent words! well, unless they're in latin, italian and other weird musical terms.

i have every learning disability in the book and i've always loathed reading. i grew up with a limited vocabulary in a household of an English teacher for a mom, a dad who does NY Times crosswords in ink in no time at all and a bonafide genius for a big brother who's a big time reader. i always felt like an idiot. i just played baseball and music and did both well enough to shy away from big words. when my mom would use them and i asked what they meant, she'd say "look it up." defiantly, i never did. as i became an adult, i was embarrassed and greatly desired a better vocabulary. the dictionary, is now my favorite book and has been for years!

when i finally got a computer a few years back, my baseball interest and knowledge grew immensely. i discovered great sites like this one and say, baseball analysts and steve goldman and all these excellent *erudite* writers. i'd shake my head in amazement at how smart these baseball writers, fans and commenters were and i've learned tons more big words from following baseball and i'm quite grateful for it! i'd much rather read an erudite such as our Cliff, than the tools that FJM have to rip apart. hell, i love how the FJM guys are so great with grammar!

i teach how music is a language - the universal language: instrumental music can transcend vocabulary. you can have someone from the US, Japan, Cuba, Sweden and India in a room. complete language barrier, but if music comes on, they can all relate similarly to the emotions. musicians, should learn how to read, write (transcribe, not necessarily compose), and speak (play). the greater your vocabulary, the more you can say on your instrument. sure, sometimes less is more, but it's nice to be able to color your ideas in different shades for different styles, moods, audiences, etc. why would anyone want to limit their vocabulary in any medium? i think the english language is fascinating. sure, it can be confusing, but words are very important and i love learning new ones. if i use a "big" word, it's never to put someone down and myself up. i'm proud if i can use one properly and i don't try to force them into every sentence.

there's nothing wrong with having a strong vocabulary and people shouldn't be put down for having one. same thing in music. if you have "chops", technique, can read, have knowledge and are well-educated, you all of a sudden have "no feel" or "can't swing" or are "bored playing simple styles" and on and on. of course, this is usually considered by players who have exceedingly limited skills. they are content to be "self-taught" and "feel players who can't count", etc etc. it's amazing how people will brag about what they *can't* do and don't know! that's a crazy concept to me. words can be so descriptive and an expansive vocabulary can really help one express themselves more fully.

I completely agree with you about the unfortunate correlation between wealth and education in this country and the fact that the government needs to act to fix our education problem and our access to education problem. That said, I don't think people have to live with the hand their dealt when it comes to education. One thing this country has gotten right in this area is the public library system. There's a free education awaiting anyone who wants to take advantage of it inside our nation's libraries. I'm not saying self-education is easy, but anyone who truly desires knowledge and education can access both. Even in a pro-education government, it will take time for real change to come about, but in the meantime we should be fostering a culture of intellectual curiosity (which I like to think we do here on this blog) and motivating people to read, research, and learn on their own, which means we should stop treating educated people like curiosities and oddballs.

Incidentally, my previous comment (15) is re: Todd's (13).

Thelarmis, that was awesome. Thank you. And I know of exactly what you speak with regard to that sort of proud musical ignorance. Heck, my senior thesis was about the often phony idea of "authenticity" in music, which is really just an extension of that anti-technique sentiment you mention (looking back, I should have worked that in!).

thanks, cliff! technique, is just a means to an end. i hear things in my inner ear and want to express them on my drumkit, but physically am unable. there's nothing more frustrating! soooo, i need to learn some type of technique which will enable me to play what i hear. that's the whole thing. technique is a tricky business and takes ages of focused, concentrated practice. it might not be "musical" going through these processes, but the ultimate goal is musical expression and that's the whole point.

self-education is definitely easier in today's world. hell, i recently bought the "grammar for dummies" book, mostly b/c i was tired of not knowing the exact differences between "further and farther" and it's a good, helpful resource. the library, internet, dictionary, etc. are available to just about everybody, regardless of socio-economic class rank. i know plenty of people who are well-spoken, read and smart without going to college. similarly, i know a bunch of folks who went to college, partied a lot and are complete tools. you'll have that...

speaking of expressing oneself, i think i'd have done a better job on the above post if i knew how to bold, italicize, etc.! i don't care much for computers and modern technology, but i'm really looking forward to learning how to do that here! i hope it's soon. i'll have to write it all down, take notes and go through some failed attempts before i get it, but it's kinda like learning how/when to use a new word properly or a new technique musically...

I hope to have that up soon, but since you're pro-self-education, it's just standard HTML tags. Google them . . .

[18] damn! i think i'll wait. i really am terrible w/ technology. the learning curve is very steep for me and it's incredibly stressful and infuriating. my brain just doesn't work well with that sorta stuff. i've tried countless times and it's no good for me. it's the same thing with pro-tools and other studio recording stuff. part of it is, i have zero interest in this sorta thing, along with brain-blockage. it's too difficult and time consuming for me, so i'll just be patient and whenever it's up here, i'll do my best at figuring it all out... thanks!

ooh, i guess you can counter that i do indeed have interest in learning how to bold, italicize, link numbers, etc. i just get overwhelmed with computer technology stuff...

ok, html attempt from the resident dumbass:

drums

rule

big words

let's see how i did...

holy crap! i did it! wahoo! and the preview feature let me see it w/out having to post twice. rock on! thanks for prompting me, cliff! i googled 'standard html tags' like you said.

it's definitely more of a pain in the ass with the greater/less than signs and stuff. (i think of them as crescendo, diminuendo!), but i'm glad we can italicize and strike through here...

now, can we link numbers? i think on a recent thread, the bracketed # turned red and went to the referenced number. on today's thread, you referenced my name, it turned red, and went to that post. i know comment features here are being tweaked and updated constantly right now in the early stages, is everything set in that regard?

here, i'll try to link a number and preview it:

[18] thanks again!

nope, it didn't turn red. well, at least i got the bold/italics/strike bit down...

21 linking to other comments is even more cumbersome as you're really just use the same method as you would use to link to any outside site. Go back to those HTML rules and find how to use "a href" tags to make links. Then come back here. Right click on the date stamp of the comment you want to link to. Chose "Copy Link Location", then type out your "a href" tag pasting the URL of the relevant comment in between the quotation marks. This should make sense once you've figured out how the tags work. Give it a shot. You can do it!

[14] Nice Dude. Thanks for sharing and opening up.
Just so you know, Drummers are ALWAYS more intelligent then they appear!

I'll tell you quickly I am one of those 'uneducated, feel' drummers. It was the bane of my musical existance that I never had the discipline or patience to stay with drum lessons (tried 3 different times). So frustrating that my hands could not adequately express what I felt. I wanteded speed, and rudiments, and syncopations, and different timings. But that stuff takes work, and I never did the work. I would listen to guys with great hands who obviously took traditional lessons (and actually practiced their rudiments) and would get depressed.

Obviously, the great ones have both 'hands' and 'feel'. On a non-professional level, not much is really expected of drummers, and so lots of feel only drummers could get by (like me). But when I listened to Cobham and others, it just reminded me how little I could do.

But.... their are many great 'technical musicians' who just don't have the right 'feel' for music. 'Feel' is something your are born with and can't be taught. I had a friend in HS who was like this. He had an Italian mother who was going to make sure her children overachieved. She would not feed Mike unless he did a solid hour, every day, practicing. He had teachers since he was 6, and at least 7 hrs/wk of practicing, EVERYDAY, until I met him at 16. The dude would show me a high speed paradiddle, then a double paradiddle, then a triple, then a flamadiddle, then an accented double... both left and right hand accents, and on and on. I was in awe.

But while he killed with precision everywhere he played... I don't know... he just didn't add anything to to music. I'm not even sure the guy was talented. He didn't really listen to music that much. He didn't talk about music. He was just a drum machine.

I saw Buddy Rich 3 times. I felt the same way about him. He was a super charged, high voltage drum machine on steroids. Everything he did, technically, blew me away. Yet I really didn't like what he played. Everytime I heard him , I would think.... if he only did this.. and this.... and threw this in....

There are guys with great feel, real soul, who just don't have the hands and feet (like me).
There are guys who did the work, schooled and practiced, but just weren't lucky enough to be born with 'It'.
And there are guys who have both... probably like you.

[22] Cliff, I know HTML. However, when I right click a Red timestamp
1) I do NOT get 'Copy Link Location' as an option (but I get other 'Link' options)
2) I right clicked on may different time stamps, and they ALL had the same link location, on this page:
http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2008/10/30/shadow-games-you-can-look-it-up/?cp=1

Typically, to link to a specific spot in a page, called an anchor, there is a pound sign (#) in the link. What am I missing/doing wrong.

Also, you used to have text at the bottom of the page that were HTML tips. This was good as people could copy/paste them, and not have to remember the syntax.

[22] ugh, you're killin' me, man! i think i've reached my quota for the day of learning new scary things! yeah, that does sound a bit difficult. i think for now, i'll just bracket the # for reference and hope folks will scroll to it. i've bookmarked the page i found for help and also made a note of where to find your above post - i wrote it down along w/ the bold, italics rules, so i can reference it if/when i'm ready to learn how to link numbers... thanks again!

I don't know why it doesn't work for you. I just right clicked and Copy Link Location-ed your comment and got:

http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=3500&cp=1#comment-80464

As for the HTML tips, those were part of the template for the old nesting system and they went away when we switched out of the nesting. I'll post the FAQ soon and that should provide people with a source for copying and pasting if they so desire (though I find that to take much longer than just typing it out, but then I've been doing this for a while now).

[23] OYF - you're absolutely right, there are indeed plenty of masterful technicians that don't have natural feel. buddy rich, would certainly NOT come to mind as falling into that camp, but i hear ya. incredible you got to see him three times! there are definitely some pretty famous drummers out there right now that fall into that category to these ears. they've got careers to die for, but it's like drum gymnastics or drums as an olympic sport and not very musical. i also have heard a few great drummers here in town with chops to die for but a square feel, stiff as a board.

of course, there are guitar shredders like that, as well...

with music and art, a lot of this is subjective, but it is pretty obvious when one doesn't have feel. yes, i have always strived for both - chops & feel. if you are born with it, as you say, perhaps i got lucky. my pop is a folk musician, who basically relies completely on feel. to this day, when i go home, i furtively peer around the corner to watch him in the living room, acoustic guitar in hand with his eyes closed belting out some old tune with so much intention and soul it can scare you into tears. he's like this everyday and i'll be home a bunch next month to witness it.

i LOVE music sooo much that i wanna know everything about it. it consumes every fiber of my being and i think there is feel in that, but it isn't for me to say whether i have either chops or feel. the first guy who hired me and brought me to atlanta is an older guru type guy. he's like a miles davis when it comes to putting bands together. he likes to find guys like me who studied music, know a lot and can read and then teach us to forget everything when you get on the bandstand and just play from your "butt." he taught me a lot about intention and the music business...

i think my feel is sacrificed a lot on my upcoming solo percussion cd. the 7 tracks that have drumkit are all pieces for drums/mallets. i really had to cater the drum parts to what was happening on the mallets. i'm okay with it, because, to me, in this instance, the composition is the most important thing, not the performance. i'd play with a better, more improvised feel if i were backing up other instrumentalists and not myself playing mallets.

there are solo marimba pieces on the record that i do believe have good feel. so often w/ classical virtuosos, they're just spewing out tons of notes at blazing tempos and there's not a lot of feel, esp since they didn't compose the piece. i am by no means saying i am a virtuoso at anything. but i studied the composer and compositions and romanticized baroque pieces, simply 'coz that's how i felt it.

i like my feel represented on a number of albums and not so much on others. the music/song/composition/artist, etc. really dictates it. i've done sooo many records where i simply have to transcribe a drum machine part and make it a bit more "human." then again, steve gadd is the perfect example of having everything. that guy just RULES!

vic firth - boston symphony tympanist/drum stick mogul - once said: "it's amazing how much innate talent a student can have when one practices 11 hours a day!" he's kinda right and so are you in regards to being born with "it" or practicing a lot. there's an art to practicing and there's a lot of musical applications for rudiments (see: gadd, steve). it's all a matter of how you go about it.

when i was younger, my mom would have to come to the baseball field and threaten to take away my drum lessons if i didn't come home and practice! eventually, she begged me to get outta the basement and take the train into the Shitty (NYC), 'coz i was practicing 12-16 hours a day!!! by that time, i learned how to practice and there was so much to get done. now, it's all about quality over quantity. i can get done what i need to now in 2-4 hours what may have taken me 10-12 hours a dozen years ago.

all this said, i need to go practice marimba before my jazz drums gig this evening!!!

rhythmically...

Dude, if you lived in the tri-state area, I would totally take drum lessons from you. I love your combination of passion, knowledge, and thirst. Fantastic.

thanks, cliff! man, don't even get me started on teaching - i adore it! i know TONS of musicians - including the guys in my trio tonight - that abhor teaching. well, i'll be in NY an awful lot next month - my grandpa, who's my hero - is not doing well at all.

i know you live in jersey though. the city is easy for me to get into. i betchya i might be able to set something up for us at drummer's collective on 6th Ave to hang out, play some drums and talk baseball! ah, probably a long shot... hell, sittin' at a bar w/ a pair of sticks, a drum pad and some notation paper is fun, too!

i hope to see my first 2 drum teachers on long island during these visits. i'm still in regular contact with both from when i was like 10 years old... : )

I’m sorry that I was off the comments for awhile. Great stuff from Cliff, thelarmis, OldYanksFan and everyone else. It’s great getting to know all of you. We’ll do a lot more of this. I’ll lighten it up tomorrow. I have a light baseball/Halloween story from an old friend of mine.

29) Best wishes for your grandpa's health. Man, I'd be up for that, I really would. Shoot me an email.

Here Here, best to your grandpops and GREAT banter on this thread today.

i appreciate it ya, cliff - thanks man!

i'll tell ya what - one of my dearest friends is a teacher at the collective. we're trying to coordinate hangin' out one of these times i'm home. but he's crazy busy and i've gotta be w/ my fam a whole lot. i'll see if he thinks it's cool for us to hang in a practice room for a little bit. if not, i'm all about meeting up in the City for a meal/drink and talkin' drums, baseball, etc. i can easily bring stix, but i don't know if i'll have a drumpad on me. barstools suffice! i'll be in touch...

steve smith - my favorite drummer - will be giving a drum clinic on Monday, Nov. 17th at 5-Towns College. it's way out on the Island - Dix Hills (whereever the hell that is!) - but i'm definitely going. i even booked my return flight to Atl around it : ) this clinic is not to be missed

[32] thank you, alex! he's the coolest cat ever and i can't wait to see him! and thank you for the forum here at BB! i'm really getting the hang of the new place : )

cliff - i used to play in NYC quite regularly, but haven't gigged up there in 5 years now. too long a drought...

OYF in 24, what browser are you using? I'm guessing not Firefox, because that's what I use and "copy link location" is in the right click list. For IE, I think its "copy link" or "copy shortcut" or something like that. If its a mac, I can't help ya. =)

thealarmis, I don't know if this is the page you found, but this might help you in terms of figuring out linking: http://tinyurl.com/o4y5. I'm not so sure I like the title of that site, but you can't beat illustrated examples. Hope your grandpa is doing better!

Heck it's been almost five years since I've played out myself! Last gig was Mercury Lounge in Jan 04, if I remember correctly. We played on a bill with Brendan Benson. Subsequently our musical careers (mine and Benson's) went in slightly different directions.

[35] Shaun/OYF: The terminology is the same in both IE and FF cross-platform. FF also uses "copy link location" and IE uses "copy shortcut" although I pray that you're not using IE on a Mac because it's old, insecure, a piece of crap, etc etc etc. If you're on a Mac you hold down your Apple key and click on the link and hold for a moment, to get the contextual menu. Or you can set up FF so that you can get the contextual menu without having to use two hands, but that's beyond the scope of this help file :-)