Well that's not very surprising to hear. I don't see any reason to play him in the field unless it's inter-league play or if someone gets hurt considering we have Nady/Swisher to fill in for Damon when he needs a rest and possibly Melky/Gardner as well, if they keep both of them on the roster.
[3] The streak was stupid,etc., but I don't see how that bears much on the current discussion. The injury that ended the streak had nothing really to do with wear and tear over a long season without rest.
[3] I don't see how that was obvious. He dove for a ball in mid-May and hurt his wrist. That could have happened to anyone --- well, maybe not Abreu. :)
At the time of injury, he had an OPS of 922 for May after a slow start in April of 767.
[4] Forgot about that one! I think it was a big middle-finger to the Japanese press..kind of out-of-chracter for Matsui, who has always been the traditional stoic-samurai-ball player type, as opposed to the flashier Ichiro or Shinjo Tsuyoshi type..
(Mets fans may remember Shinjo..all flash, no bat..he won the Japan Series back here a few years ago with the Nippon Ham Fighters, led by Trey Hillman. For his last game, he parachuted into the outfield wearing sunglasses and Lee Mazzilli-level tight uniform pants. Now he appears at fashion shows with hot models..not bad for a .245 hitter..)
[5][6] As [7] said, it would seem apparent that Matsui's knee injuries were at least partially the result of the wear and tear imposed by playing on turf. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that if the streak had ended when he became a Yankee that he would have reduced the risk of exacerbating the underlying problem, especially as he entered his 30s.
So if it wasn't for the wrist injury, the streak would have likely ended as a result of the knees, or worse, but for the wrist, he might have continued to play with deteriorating knees to prolong the streak.
One reason I opposed his streak (or any streak) is that early in Jeter's career, Torre purposely sat him for a game to ensure that he wouldn't have that added burden at some later point in his career. As someone who has long been critical of Torre, I always appreciated that move, and believed that the decision to continue Matsui's streak was made above Torre.
[9]and believed that the decision to continue Matsui’s streak was made above Torre.
Does this really make any sense? Who above Torre would possibly be concerned about Matsui's streak? The reference to sitting Jeter doesn't relate too much to the Matsui situation: it's pretty easy for a manager to bench a young player early in his career; it's another thing for a manager to try to break up a veteran player streak.
Torre is a players' manager. I'm sure that Matsui made it known that he wanted to play and Torre obliged.
Indeed, according to Tyler Kepner (in 2006):
One reason the Yankees want to avoid a repeat of last season's [2005] slow start is the health of left fielder Hideki Matsui. Manager Joe Torre has allowed Matsui to play every game for three years, extending his consecutive-games streak to 1,787, counting time in Japan...
Torre said he would try to rest Matsui and Gary Sheffield this season by using them at designated hitter. Torre could also preserve Matsui's streak by using him as a pinch-hitter, as he did last June.
In other words, according to Kepner, Torre not only went along with the streak, he came with tactics specifically designed to keep the streak going while trying to rest Matsui.
[9]and believed that the decision to continue Matsui’s streak was made above Torre.
Does this really make any sense? Who above Torre would possibly be concerned about Matsui's streak? The reference to sitting Jeter doesn't relate too much to the Matsui situation: it's pretty easy for a manager to bench a young player early in his career; it's another thing for a manager to try to break up a veteran player streak.
Torre is a players' manager. I'm sure that Matsui made it known that he wanted to play and Torre obliged.
Indeed, according to Tyler Kepner (in 2006):
One reason the Yankees want to avoid a repeat of last season's [2005] slow start is the health of left fielder Hideki Matsui. Manager Joe Torre has allowed Matsui to play every game for three years, extending his consecutive-games streak to 1,787, counting time in Japan...
Torre said he would try to rest Matsui and Gary Sheffield this season by using them at designated hitter. Torre could also preserve Matsui's streak by using him as a pinch-hitter, as he did last June.
In other words, according to Kepner, Torre not only went along with the streak, he came with tactics specifically designed to keep the streak going while trying to rest Matsui.
[11] Maybe it COULD have come from above if the Yankees are really making that much money from their Japanese sponsors..anyone know a bit more about the financials of the advertising by Yomiuri, etc? Matsui's streak was a really big deal here and when he got injured it was all over the news and tv..maybe there was a bit of talk behind the scenes about Yanks doing all they could to keep it going..just blind speculation here as usual though!
[12] That would be the only reason. But really, how much of a difference in terms of advertising did it make between Matsui streaking v. Matsui starting? He never could have set any MLB records (starting so late in his career). Did the Japanese media make a big deal of his continued streak (ie, in Japan + in the US)? Was there talk of him setting some sort of international record?
I'm just asking--you have the better vantage point, obviously.
[14] Yes, media here was all over it. There are elements in the media here, especially newspapers that are..to put it delicately, "enthused" about Japanese players setting records in the US (Ichiro's season hits record for example). Matsui was seen as someone who could challenge Ripken's record..The Yomiuri group, owned by Watanabe "Japanese Steinbrenner" Tsuneo have a LOT of clout, owning the Yomiuri Giants, a tv station and the biggest selling newspaper in Japan (and the world)...they "could" have delicately hinted at more extensive advertising at the Stadium, etc if Matsui were to have a chance at the record..That's been rumored here but no proof and all moot now.
[14] I think it was a matter of placating Matsui in order to ensure positive publicity in Japan as the Yankees sought to gain a foothold there. In an analogous vein, MLB Trade Rumors cited a Gammons story a few days ago that stated that:
Rangers GM Jon Daniels told Gammons his team bid $7MM for Junichi Tazawa, but the Red Sox signed him for $3MM due to their presence in Japan.
So it's not like there would have been no rationale for pursuing such a course.
As for the Kepner note on Torre, he was a company man before he turned tail and wrote his recent book.
Obviously, there is the possibility that my take is wrong, but otoh, it never made sense to me that he would take affirmative steps to protect Jeter from assembling a streak while also facilitating Matsui's streak, at least from a purely baseball perspective because of the law of diminishing returns.
[17] maybe he was protecting jeter from himself (torre), knowing that he could never sit jeter later on if he hadn't earlier. but there's no logic in this statement [9]: "One reason I opposed his streak (or any streak) is that early in Jeter’s career, Torre purposely sat him for a game to ensure that he wouldn’t have that added burden at some later point in his career." do you mean that you opposed the streak because of the added burden? if so, it has nothing to do with what torre did with jeter, unless that happened to be the first time it occurred to you personally that a streak adds a burden to the streaking player. anyway, the idea that matsui's knees would be fine if he'd only had a few days off seems kind of silly. as you say in [9], "As [7] said, it would seem apparent that Matsui’s knee injuries were at least partially the result of the wear and tear imposed by playing on turf." so if that's the source of the injury that's the source. i agree that the streak was silly, but i doubt it made much of a difference on his knees. and anyway, as [1] points out, he shouldn't be a fielder anyway.
[16][17] I'm not sold on the economic motives argument, but again, we'll probably never know. More generally, I wouldn't give too much credit to Torre for saving Jeter's future by resting him. He played 157 games in his first full season, 159 in his second. I'm not convinced those extra couple days off made much of a difference in keeping him fresh. Torre also played A-Rod 162 games in 2006, Bernie 158 games in 1999, etc.
In other words, it wasn't much of stretch for Torre to keep Matsui in the lineup a few more games than he would with any of his circle of trust.
Does it "make sense" from a baseball perspective? Of course not. But then, neither does leaving a pitcher in if he has a no hitter but pulling him automatically should he give up a flair or bunt base hit in the ninth. That is, there is a long tradition in baseball of managers deferring to players in order to leave open the possibility of streaks, no-hitters, and other records or freak achievements. When Matsui showed up with a streak already in progress, there was no way that Torre would stop it. Rather, he did what they did for Gehrig--use him as a PH or pull him early to give partial days off and still maintain the player's somewhat meaningless goal.
[19] But Monkeypants, Cal Ripken "saved baseball" with his Iron Man streak!! It must be of vital importance to play every day and show "that's what baseball is all about".."being a grinder" who "gets his uniform dirty" and "is all that is right about the game" and "stays in separate hotels from his teamates" and..wait a second, scratch that last one..
Sorry, spent some time in DC/Balmore area once, the Cal worship was nauseating..REALLY hope that's not how the rest of the world sees Jeter in NYC..
Jeter had been quoted, perhaps partially in jest, as telling Torre that he wanted to make a run at Ripken's streak and that he was disappointed that Torre rested him so early in his career to ensure that he would not have an ongoing consecutive game streak.
By truncating any potential run at Ripken's record later in Jeter's career, Torre obviated the possibility that Jeter and/or his manager at the time would be confronted with the decision (and the concomitant burden) of whether or not to continue the streak at the cost of his health or the team's chances of winning (e.g., playing with a nagging injury that reduced his effectiveness).
Whether or not one chooses to call it a burden or an added burden is a matter of semantics, not to mention, sort of bizarre. In any case, you are you free to accept or reject it, but I stand by the logic of my original statement. I would have thought that it was obvious (although perhaps not to you) that continuing to perform at a high level as a player ages, given the physical demands of the game, could impose a burden in and of itself. Factoring in a consecutive game streak could be an additional impediment, even more so than the often arduous task of playing six games out of seven in one's 30s. In other words, the streak is...wait for it... an added burden.
As for your interpretation of my comment about the prognosis for Matsui's knees, you seem to have a propensity to construe language in a mutilative way. It's absurd to view what I said as arguing for the position that Matsui's knees would be "fine" if he had more rest. It is not unreasonable, however, to believe that regular rest would have had lessed the wear and tear on his (or any aging player's) knees.
[21] what i said had nothing to do with the word "added." i just don't see what jeter, or torre for that matter, have to do with your initial point, which is that you foresaw the injury risk inherent in a long streak while everyone else poo-pooed you for poo-pooing [3]. it's somewhat circular to say "the reason i'm against streaks is that torre sat jeter because he thought streaks are burdensome and i think torre was right even though i usually think he's wrong." in other words, you aren't against streaks because torre thinks they're burdensome, you're against them because you think they're burdensome. and they are. but (1) you aren't the only person who thought the streak was stupid, and even if you were there's no need to have a told-you-so attitude about it; (2) as you say, it was likely the years of playing on turf without a break that wore his knees down; and (3) he's a lousy fielder anyway.
[19] I view it as being about the brand, which has tangible (increased revenues) and intangible (other Japanese players want to play for your team because others have succeeded there) aspects.
[22] It goes to a supposition about Torre's possible cognizance about the negative aspects of a prolonged streak, one of which is the potential for injury as a result of wear and tear or fatigue. My point is that if Torre wanted to safeguard Jeter from those possible negative consequences, it seems reasonable that he would be concerned about Matsui experiencing similar problems.
So it's not circular reasoning; it's using an example in one case and then extrapolating from that example to another.
I never claimed that I was the only person who held that position, only that my position was not universally held.
The Yankees have had so many below average defensive OFers during Matsui's time in NY that the measurement of a lousy fielder has to be somewhat relative. As an example, the Yankees even used him in CF for 77 games, but then again, their regular CFer was a severely declining Bernie Williams.
Hideki Matsui will not be playing the field anytime soon.
And that's a good thing, as he's not very good defensively.
Well that's not very surprising to hear. I don't see any reason to play him in the field unless it's inter-league play or if someone gets hurt considering we have Nady/Swisher to fill in for Damon when he needs a rest and possibly Melky/Gardner as well, if they keep both of them on the roster.
I used to get killed for saying that his consecutive games streak was stupid and counterproductive. Obviously, it was.
Well he is married to a fine sketch of a woman on a piece of paper, so of course he's not gonna be playing the... oh, wait... >;)
[3] The streak was stupid,etc., but I don't see how that bears much on the current discussion. The injury that ended the streak had nothing really to do with wear and tear over a long season without rest.
[3] I don't see how that was obvious. He dove for a ball in mid-May and hurt his wrist. That could have happened to anyone --- well, maybe not Abreu. :)
At the time of injury, he had an OPS of 922 for May after a slow start in April of 767.
[5] years on the harder-than-concrete turf at the Tokyo Dome didn't help either..
Matsui overall was a good signing for the Yanks, even with the bad luck injury. He won't be back next year so hope he can get a ring now..
[4] Forgot about that one! I think it was a big middle-finger to the Japanese press..kind of out-of-chracter for Matsui, who has always been the traditional stoic-samurai-ball player type, as opposed to the flashier Ichiro or Shinjo Tsuyoshi type..
(Mets fans may remember Shinjo..all flash, no bat..he won the Japan Series back here a few years ago with the Nippon Ham Fighters, led by Trey Hillman. For his last game, he parachuted into the outfield wearing sunglasses and Lee Mazzilli-level tight uniform pants. Now he appears at fashion shows with hot models..not bad for a .245 hitter..)
[5] [6] As [7] said, it would seem apparent that Matsui's knee injuries were at least partially the result of the wear and tear imposed by playing on turf. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that if the streak had ended when he became a Yankee that he would have reduced the risk of exacerbating the underlying problem, especially as he entered his 30s.
So if it wasn't for the wrist injury, the streak would have likely ended as a result of the knees, or worse, but for the wrist, he might have continued to play with deteriorating knees to prolong the streak.
One reason I opposed his streak (or any streak) is that early in Jeter's career, Torre purposely sat him for a game to ensure that he wouldn't have that added burden at some later point in his career. As someone who has long been critical of Torre, I always appreciated that move, and believed that the decision to continue Matsui's streak was made above Torre.
[9] and believed that the decision to continue Matsui’s streak was made above Torre.
Does this really make any sense? Who above Torre would possibly be concerned about Matsui's streak? The reference to sitting Jeter doesn't relate too much to the Matsui situation: it's pretty easy for a manager to bench a young player early in his career; it's another thing for a manager to try to break up a veteran player streak.
Torre is a players' manager. I'm sure that Matsui made it known that he wanted to play and Torre obliged.
Indeed, according to Tyler Kepner (in 2006):
One reason the Yankees want to avoid a repeat of last season's [2005] slow start is the health of left fielder Hideki Matsui. Manager Joe Torre has allowed Matsui to play every game for three years, extending his consecutive-games streak to 1,787, counting time in Japan...
Torre said he would try to rest Matsui and Gary Sheffield this season by using them at designated hitter. Torre could also preserve Matsui's streak by using him as a pinch-hitter, as he did last June.
http://tinyurl.com/coflhy
In other words, according to Kepner, Torre not only went along with the streak, he came with tactics specifically designed to keep the streak going while trying to rest Matsui.
[9] and believed that the decision to continue Matsui’s streak was made above Torre.
Does this really make any sense? Who above Torre would possibly be concerned about Matsui's streak? The reference to sitting Jeter doesn't relate too much to the Matsui situation: it's pretty easy for a manager to bench a young player early in his career; it's another thing for a manager to try to break up a veteran player streak.
Torre is a players' manager. I'm sure that Matsui made it known that he wanted to play and Torre obliged.
Indeed, according to Tyler Kepner (in 2006):
http://tinyurl.com/coflhy
In other words, according to Kepner, Torre not only went along with the streak, he came with tactics specifically designed to keep the streak going while trying to rest Matsui.
[11] Maybe it COULD have come from above if the Yankees are really making that much money from their Japanese sponsors..anyone know a bit more about the financials of the advertising by Yomiuri, etc? Matsui's streak was a really big deal here and when he got injured it was all over the news and tv..maybe there was a bit of talk behind the scenes about Yanks doing all they could to keep it going..just blind speculation here as usual though!
In other Japanese Yankee news, apparently Igawa may be earning a roster spot.
http://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/2009/03/mariano_rivera_derek_jeter_kei.html
I am opposed to such a thing.
[12] That would be the only reason. But really, how much of a difference in terms of advertising did it make between Matsui streaking v. Matsui starting? He never could have set any MLB records (starting so late in his career). Did the Japanese media make a big deal of his continued streak (ie, in Japan + in the US)? Was there talk of him setting some sort of international record?
I'm just asking--you have the better vantage point, obviously.
[13] I have visions of an Igawa-Tomko one-two punch...
[13] I too am opposed. Very opposed!!
[14] Yes, media here was all over it. There are elements in the media here, especially newspapers that are..to put it delicately, "enthused" about Japanese players setting records in the US (Ichiro's season hits record for example). Matsui was seen as someone who could challenge Ripken's record..The Yomiuri group, owned by Watanabe "Japanese Steinbrenner" Tsuneo have a LOT of clout, owning the Yomiuri Giants, a tv station and the biggest selling newspaper in Japan (and the world)...they "could" have delicately hinted at more extensive advertising at the Stadium, etc if Matsui were to have a chance at the record..That's been rumored here but no proof and all moot now.
[12] Made my case again.
[14] I think it was a matter of placating Matsui in order to ensure positive publicity in Japan as the Yankees sought to gain a foothold there. In an analogous vein, MLB Trade Rumors cited a Gammons story a few days ago that stated that:
So it's not like there would have been no rationale for pursuing such a course.
As for the Kepner note on Torre, he was a company man before he turned tail and wrote his recent book.
Obviously, there is the possibility that my take is wrong, but otoh, it never made sense to me that he would take affirmative steps to protect Jeter from assembling a streak while also facilitating Matsui's streak, at least from a purely baseball perspective because of the law of diminishing returns.
[17] maybe he was protecting jeter from himself (torre), knowing that he could never sit jeter later on if he hadn't earlier. but there's no logic in this statement [9]: "One reason I opposed his streak (or any streak) is that early in Jeter’s career, Torre purposely sat him for a game to ensure that he wouldn’t have that added burden at some later point in his career." do you mean that you opposed the streak because of the added burden? if so, it has nothing to do with what torre did with jeter, unless that happened to be the first time it occurred to you personally that a streak adds a burden to the streaking player. anyway, the idea that matsui's knees would be fine if he'd only had a few days off seems kind of silly. as you say in [9], "As [7] said, it would seem apparent that Matsui’s knee injuries were at least partially the result of the wear and tear imposed by playing on turf." so if that's the source of the injury that's the source. i agree that the streak was silly, but i doubt it made much of a difference on his knees. and anyway, as [1] points out, he shouldn't be a fielder anyway.
[16] [17] I'm not sold on the economic motives argument, but again, we'll probably never know. More generally, I wouldn't give too much credit to Torre for saving Jeter's future by resting him. He played 157 games in his first full season, 159 in his second. I'm not convinced those extra couple days off made much of a difference in keeping him fresh. Torre also played A-Rod 162 games in 2006, Bernie 158 games in 1999, etc.
In other words, it wasn't much of stretch for Torre to keep Matsui in the lineup a few more games than he would with any of his circle of trust.
Does it "make sense" from a baseball perspective? Of course not. But then, neither does leaving a pitcher in if he has a no hitter but pulling him automatically should he give up a flair or bunt base hit in the ninth. That is, there is a long tradition in baseball of managers deferring to players in order to leave open the possibility of streaks, no-hitters, and other records or freak achievements. When Matsui showed up with a streak already in progress, there was no way that Torre would stop it. Rather, he did what they did for Gehrig--use him as a PH or pull him early to give partial days off and still maintain the player's somewhat meaningless goal.
[19] But Monkeypants, Cal Ripken "saved baseball" with his Iron Man streak!! It must be of vital importance to play every day and show "that's what baseball is all about".."being a grinder" who "gets his uniform dirty" and "is all that is right about the game" and "stays in separate hotels from his teamates" and..wait a second, scratch that last one..
Sorry, spent some time in DC/Balmore area once, the Cal worship was nauseating..REALLY hope that's not how the rest of the world sees Jeter in NYC..
[18] Huh?
Jeter had been quoted, perhaps partially in jest, as telling Torre that he wanted to make a run at Ripken's streak and that he was disappointed that Torre rested him so early in his career to ensure that he would not have an ongoing consecutive game streak.
By truncating any potential run at Ripken's record later in Jeter's career, Torre obviated the possibility that Jeter and/or his manager at the time would be confronted with the decision (and the concomitant burden) of whether or not to continue the streak at the cost of his health or the team's chances of winning (e.g., playing with a nagging injury that reduced his effectiveness).
Whether or not one chooses to call it a burden or an added burden is a matter of semantics, not to mention, sort of bizarre. In any case, you are you free to accept or reject it, but I stand by the logic of my original statement. I would have thought that it was obvious (although perhaps not to you) that continuing to perform at a high level as a player ages, given the physical demands of the game, could impose a burden in and of itself. Factoring in a consecutive game streak could be an additional impediment, even more so than the often arduous task of playing six games out of seven in one's 30s. In other words, the streak is...wait for it... an added burden.
As for your interpretation of my comment about the prognosis for Matsui's knees, you seem to have a propensity to construe language in a mutilative way. It's absurd to view what I said as arguing for the position that Matsui's knees would be "fine" if he had more rest. It is not unreasonable, however, to believe that regular rest would have had lessed the wear and tear on his (or any aging player's) knees.
(Serenity now!)
[21] what i said had nothing to do with the word "added." i just don't see what jeter, or torre for that matter, have to do with your initial point, which is that you foresaw the injury risk inherent in a long streak while everyone else poo-pooed you for poo-pooing [3]. it's somewhat circular to say "the reason i'm against streaks is that torre sat jeter because he thought streaks are burdensome and i think torre was right even though i usually think he's wrong." in other words, you aren't against streaks because torre thinks they're burdensome, you're against them because you think they're burdensome. and they are. but (1) you aren't the only person who thought the streak was stupid, and even if you were there's no need to have a told-you-so attitude about it; (2) as you say, it was likely the years of playing on turf without a break that wore his knees down; and (3) he's a lousy fielder anyway.
[19] I view it as being about the brand, which has tangible (increased revenues) and intangible (other Japanese players want to play for your team because others have succeeded there) aspects.
Vemos la próxima vez, los Cubanos, 日本勝った！ (Japan wins!)
Final Four of USA, Japan, Korea, Venezuela..
[22] It goes to a supposition about Torre's possible cognizance about the negative aspects of a prolonged streak, one of which is the potential for injury as a result of wear and tear or fatigue. My point is that if Torre wanted to safeguard Jeter from those possible negative consequences, it seems reasonable that he would be concerned about Matsui experiencing similar problems.
So it's not circular reasoning; it's using an example in one case and then extrapolating from that example to another.
I never claimed that I was the only person who held that position, only that my position was not universally held.
The Yankees have had so many below average defensive OFers during Matsui's time in NY that the measurement of a lousy fielder has to be somewhat relative. As an example, the Yankees even used him in CF for 77 games, but then again, their regular CFer was a severely declining Bernie Williams.