Over at SI.com, Bill James and Joe Posnanski team-up for a column on the Big Unit, Randy Johnson:
Joe: That gets us to the larger point. Seems to me that Randy Johnson has in some ways been overshadowed in his own generation. It isn’t that people missed the point that the Unit has been a great pitcher — the guy has won five Cy Young Awards — it’s that I’m not sure people realize just HOW great he has been.
Why? It’s funny: I think it’s because while everyone will talk and talk about all the steroids and home runs during the Selig Era, and everyone will talk about how offense dominated the last 15 to 20 years, the truth is that the last 15 to 20 years have given us four of the best pitchers in the history of baseball.
And I just find that richly ironic: I don’t believe there has ever been an era in baseball history that gave us four pitchers as good as Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson. So while Johnson has been Nolan Ryan with control (the Unit’s 10.7 strikeouts per nine innings is the best ever), while he had a longer Koufax-like peak, while he’s about to win his 300th game, he’s still widely viewed as the fourth-best pitcher of his time.
"he’s still widely viewed as the fourth-best pitcher of his time." ....
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1) He spent a good portion of his career toiling for a team that rarely showed up on TV/cable those days (Seattle)
2) The writers judged him to be a surly pr**k.
[2] And don't forget
3) He's ugly as sin.
Now that I know Bill James thinks Brando is overrated, I can't take him seriously.
I think Diane and Hawk are both right. I've been arguing that for a lot of players OUR sense of them is heavily filtered through what the media decide to do with them, how they spin it. Ted Williams is a great example, even here someone said 'he was a jerk with the press' and that explains why he was dumped on. But the truth, and I have read a fair bit about it, is that it went the other way ... Williams refused to suck up, recruit, lobby the media, regarded stupid questions or comments as stupid ... and paid a price among them ... and therefore among fans.
Today, with so much more media coverage, the blogosphere, and 24 hour cable sports channels that HAVE to find things to say ... it is even worse, harder.
Appearance, even a cool NAME also make a big difference in how someone's responded to. You can still 'make it' as a fan fav despite looking ugly (or being 6' 10" gawky PLUS ugly) but it is harder. Consider Jim Palmer, who got underwear ads ... TRY to picture Randy Johnson doing an ... no, sorry. Don't.
(Actually, to complicate it, sometimes people get dumped on for seeming TOO pretty, or too aware of it. Steve Garvey? Thurman once did an ad satirizing, wonderfully, the idea that he was jealous of Fisk because Fisk was so handsome, well-built, smooth whereas Thurman had your ultimate lunchbucket grinder look.)
I'm also not sure Johnson ISN'T the 4th best of those 4 guys. Tough to rank them, isn't it?
[4] Before you said "don't" ... I already did. *shivers*
Actually, it wasn't that bad haha.
Ranking those four is difficult. I saw Clemens and Pedro the most. I feel like, cliche though it may be, Clemens and Johnson were all brawn, Maddux the brains. Pedro had both. Obviously at the top of their game they're all unbeatable, but I can't help but give the nod to Pedro.
Damn it I meant [3]
Plus Randy Johnson would have gotten a LOT more favorable press from the New York media if he pitched like an all time great while with the Yankees.
With the Yanks, he posted an ERA of 4.37 which is an ERA+ of 100. He was greatly mediocre. Instead if had put up some 20-4 seasons like he did with Seattle, then he wouldn't be so unsung. Heck, he might still be pitching for the Yanks. And would have had his 300th win a while back.
I think Pedro had the best peak, but he's last on that list for longevity.
Some players simply rub me the wrong way and I can't stand them. Randy was never in that category. I used to love seeing that 6'10" mullet-headed s.o.b on the mound. Sure he was a Yankee killer, but I still have to give the man credit. I hope he enjoys #300. [0] Dig the pic.
Pedro's top ERA+ : 291, 243, 219, 210, 202, 189
Maddux top ERA+ : 271, 262, then 189
Clemens: 226, 221, 213, 193
RJ: 197, 196, 192, 188
So even based on peak years, RJ was clearly the "worst" of the four. I am surprised that Clemens's dominance trails Maddux's and Pedro's so much.
Pedro had 6 years with a WHIP less than 1. Maddux had 4. Clemens and RJ only 1.
Interestingly enough, both Pedro and Maddux had SO/BB ratios > 8. Clemens never went above 5 and RJ's highest about 6.6. Pedro and Maddux both had several seasons where their strikeout to walks ratio was above 7. Maddux was not a strikeout pitcher like the other three but he gave up much fewer walks.
Right, I guess [7] was pretty obvious. Wow, five years of ERA+ over 200, that's superhuman.
(Of course, Mo has had > 200 ERA+ for nine of his fourteen completed seasons, and two of them were over 300. But that's different.)
I THINK I go Maddux, Pedro, Roger, Unit ... mixing peaks with longevity. But I wouldn't argue much against other rankings.
Maddux is undervalued in some ways, too, because of the surgical quietude of his pitching. No visible chest-thumping, to rep for brushbacks, no jaw-drop heater. Though the book on Glavine and Mussina makes it very clear how ferociously, over-the-top competitive he was, in everything.
i know maddux isn't considered a "strikeout" pitcher, but - the guy is 10th - TENTH!!! - all-time in strikeouts, with 3,371.
i do realize he pitched a lot of years (23) and is 13th in innings pitched (5,008) and that he barely broke 200 K's in a season only once, (though he came close 4 other times). but still, the guy racked up an awful lot of strikeouts. i loved him and miss watching him pitch, esp live here in atlanta...
i'm not a big RJ fan, either. but i love baseball and round numbers. i'm looking forward to him winning his 300th. he loves the history of the game and will be quite proud. i also hope he somehow sticks around enough and reaches 5,000 K's. wow, that's a shit-ton of punchouts!!!
@3
Great thoughts right there.
RJ's problem is that he stayed too long.
[9] Interesting, but selective use of stats there. Joe Poz uses others to show the Big Unit maybe the best of all four..I would rank them Pedro, Unit, Maddux, Clemens, but so close as to be pointless..