depressing game. depressing game thread. we've gotta turn around this in-season series.

0-6

Ouch

That's what I said
to end the last thread

[1] I agree. Come on let's get to 2-6!!!

... Ouch

They can win all the games during the regular season series if we make the WS and they miss the playoffs. I'm not really worried about our prospects if we beat up the rest of the league. Eff em.

Btw, sweet sticker, AB; do you have a set of those? I remember in elementary school, the nurse's office had a large cabinet that was plastered with those kind of stckers. I sometimes went to her office just to read all of them, including the new ones that would pop up from time to time. >;)

[4]

I found a book of them, and had a friend get it for me for a present last year ...

http://www.amazon.com/Wacky-Packages-Topps-Company/dp/081099531X

[5] oh cool. are these the same ones I remember? I thought I remember something like this but called differently.

I defend Cashman more than most people, but signing AJ to a five year contact was a terrible decsion and he has to take a major hit for it.

They need to put AJ in the pen in order to cut their losses.

[7] I think it is way too early to draw those conclusions. Though I don't like the terms of the deal either.

[3] If this is true, you are a rare bird among Yankee fans - indeed, among sports fans in general.

[3] i agree. as i said in the game thread, yanks went 4-8 against boston in 99, then won 4/5 in the alcs. of course, that was the 99 yankees. (by the way, i was looking up the record and was reading the wiki page on the yankee-red sox rivalry, and this is what it says under october 13, 1999: "The Yankees win game one of the ALCS against the Red Sox on a 10th inning walk-off home run by Bernie Williams off Boston reliever Rod Beck after a controversial call by umpire Tim Tschida against the Red Sox in the 9th led the game to continue." does anyone remember a controversial call? i remember that when brosius scored the tying run in the 7th it was because varitek dropped a very good throw by nixon, but i don't remember any bad calls or any feeling that the victory was tainted. and my art teacher was a huge red sox fan and i remember the next day the only discussion was about the dropped ball at the plate. this is what retrosheet lists in the top of the 9th: "RIVERA REPLACED HERNANDEZ (PITCHING); Varitek grounded out (second to first); Lewis struck out; Nixon grounded out (pitcher to first); 0 R, 0 H, 0 E, 0 LOB." doesn't sound like anything that would have led to a run with a different call. but tschida was the rf umpire, so maybe there was a close call on a foul ball? shall i delete that nonsense?

i'm sorry for any unpleasantness that my name-calling contributed to the last post.

Felix: That's not Carl Pavano, that's A.J. Burnett!

Oscar: Now it's gahbige.

[10] Wasn't there a botched call at 2B--either a tag that was missed, or a non-call on interference of a DP or some such? That extended the inning...

[12][10] Actually, no, that can't be it.

[12] Ah, THAT controversial call came in game 4.

Meanwhile, YOUR controversial call in game 1 came in the 10th inning, not the ninth:

Williams, who nearly signed as a free agent with Boston last November before deciding to stay in the Bronx, led off the 10th by blasting the second pitch from Rod Beck (0-1) over the center-field fence, giving the Yankees their 11th straight postseason victory.

The Yankees can tie their own major league record for consecutive postseason wins in Game Two on Thursday night.

Jose Offerman singled off Mariano Rivera in the top of the 10th before John Valentin hit a ground ball to third baseman Scott Brosius. His throw to second base was dropped by Chuck Knoblauch, but umpire Rick Reed called Offerman out on the force play.

"I thought he had possession before he dropped the ball," Reed said. "After we went in and looked at the tape, we decided that wasn't the case. As an umpire, it was my job to get it right and I didn't. We feel bad about it. I feel awful."

http://tinyurl.com/mgfs4d

[6] Wacky Packs were kind of like Grabage Pail Kids, which may be what you are remembering?

[10] An apology is in order, but not from you...

[14] There were a few calls that went against Boston in that series, which probably contributed to Fenway being littered with debris in Game 5.

What I remember most (or least) about the 1999 ALCS was that there really wasn't a sense of great rivalry (aside from the Clemens' return to Fenway). I was lucky enough to be at both game 1 and 2 of that series, and don't recall heightened tension because they were playing Boston. The return of the rivalry was really jump started after several years of Pedro and the acquisition of Schilling.

@ 7

The Spineless One has never thought Pavano was a mistake and he made all of 26 starts in four years. What makes you think he'd ever own up to the obvious with Burnett?

I'm afraid Burnett, when healthy, will be an "anchor" on the staff for the next four plus years. The best we can hope for, I think, is his elbow falling off.

By the way, that Cashman quote about growing your own pitching really stuck in my craw last night. Between Pavano, Burnett, and Igawa, The Spineless One has spent $170 million on utter scrubs. Meanwhile, Phil Hughes sits in the bullpen. Great philosophy!

@ 10

Thanks but you just called it like you saw it. I got no problem with that.

[2] Very poetic, Hawk.

[7] Its a little early to call the Burnett signing a "terrible decision." If he stays healthy, he's going to win plenty of games here in the next 5 years.

[17] Of course in hindsight Pavano was a mistake. But he was the top FA pitcher in the 2004 class. Boston, Detroit, Seattle and Baltimore all seriously courted him. He was coming off a wonderful age-28 season and appeared to have his injury problems behind him with two 200+ IP seasons in a row. I didn't hear a peep anywhere at the time that the Pavano signing was anything but a major plus for the Yankees.

@ 19

Then you weren't reading this blog. There were plenty of "peeps" at the old place and from many other non-MSM outlets. Informed fans knew his season was a fluke. And it was.

@ 19

Also, the fact that you have to qualify Burnett's ability to win based on his injury history was more than enough reason not to give him a big money contract. There was also the general suckitude he usually shows. Even his 2008 sucked for most the season against teams that don't wear pinstripes. Cliff nailed it here.

Burnett is an utter joke. Last night proved it. This Sunday, against Santana, will again. I don't know about you, but when we're paying someone $16.5 million/year I expect them to actually pitch decently. 5 walks in 2.2 shows he has no clue how to pitch. He's a chucker. Always has been too.

I would argue that this is what you get when you sign some schlub who hasn't played in a meaningful major league game in his entire 10-year career coming into this season! He's simply buckling under the pressure because of a lack of experience in these types of games in my opinion. When stressed or fatigued, one almost always reverts to flawed mechanics. Clearly Burnett wasn't tired last night. Eiland hasn't been able to help him mechanically gain command of his fastball the way he had it in Tampa in his second start. While he may have looked good in his side work, it has yet to translate into games on a consistent basis. I also believe he dislikes having Jorge catch/call his games. Shaking the catcher off more often than not prohibits getting into a rhythm. He seemed to be able to do that with Molina more readily if I remember correctly.

We know he can throw a gem and dominate an order. He threw one at The Trop April 14TH and another one in Arlington on May 27TH. Girardi made note of his start against Baltimore, but he only went 5.1 innings in that one. Perhaps he was referring to "coming up big for the team" there. Feh, I say! He needs to get his mechanics fixed and quickly before he gets hurt behind the flaws in his delivery! That's when he turns into Carl Pavano!

What really pisses me off is he brags about how Halladay told him to "hold back" to make his career last longer by changing speeds and not throwing as hard with the fastball as he can. That's not a very good idea for a power pitcher in my opinion and I think Halladay told him that to set him up in case they ever faced each other. How did that game work out again? I thought so... It's good to throw hard enough to blow away hitters. Changing speeds is for hurlers that don't have high-end velocity as an asset to their arsenal. If you are a power guy, the ability to spot it is infinitely more important (see Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, CC Sabathia, really any power guy).

I wouldn't let him get anywhere near the kids on our pitching staff with that bullshit! It's taken this long for Joba to lose that "holding back" ridiculousness! This is MLB! Your best effort is required to succeed at "the show!" Anything but your best gets hammered like the "horseshit" it is, and rightfully so!

RYI made some feeble attempt at sarcasm mentioning that I should be the pitching coach instead of Dave Eiland in another thread! At least Eiland and I have the same amount of success pitching in major league playoff games! I would also include that practically to a man, every Yankees hurler has struggled with mechanics and command of the fastball, some more than others. Burnett falls into the "more" part of that observation. I wouldn't mind so much if this was still ST, but they are 33% into the regular season at this pernt. I don't remember that happening to an entire Yankees pitching staff before, not with everyone!

If you are a major league pitcher and you cannot control number one, you end up pitching like number two...

It doesn't take a major league pitching coach to know that!

No, that's not what I mentioned.

Ending every sentence with an exclamation mark isn't a good substitute for getting your facts right, PJ. It's a lot like screaming.

Isn't anyone concerned about the fact that they only had two hits? How about the last inning?

A-Rod has to be hurt. Maybe he has PTSD? Obvious description of error is that he missed the transfer from glove to hand. Eckersley criticized him for not attempting to get the man at first. His confusion is a Spring training mistake. Fourth error since his return. He could be worried about testing the knee.

How does Burnett throw that flatball to Papi?

Also of some interest, I watched the game with a non-seeing Boston Red Sox fan. He follows the shapes. Had great conversations. He switched back and forth effortlessly between Lakers and Sox. He is a friend of Ernie Harwell. Knows a lot of baseball.

AJ Burnett's career ERA+ is 110. Beckett's is 116.

This guy is clearly a bum.

[24] Why does he have to be hurt? Four errors in 30 games is not an outlandish total. I am sure Arod is still not back to 100%, but 3Bmen will make errors.

[19] Its a little early to call the Burnett signing a “terrible decision.” If he stays healthy, he’s going to win plenty of games here in the next 5 years.
__

His career ERA+ is 111 and he has only pitched 200 IP 3 times. Consequently, I think it is a terrible decision based on both the term of the contract and the AAV when juxtaposed against that track record.

The twin justification for that contract is that when he stays healthy he is an elite pitcher and that as a result of Hallady's influence he suddenly became a pitcher instead of a thrower last year at the advanced age (in baseball terms) of 31.

Yet as the stats demonstrate, he doesn't stay healthy very often and he doesn't appear to have the requisite mental makeup to be a consistently effective pitcher.

My perception about AJ to this point is that he is a pitcher who lets the circumstances of the game overwhelm is ability to repeat his delivery, which appeared to take place in both games v. Boston as well as in his start v. Toronto.

This observation dovetails with a note in Klapisch's column today:

But the Sox have found the fatal flaw in his arsenal. Despite Burnett’s high 90s fastball and devastating curve, neutralizing him can be as simple as waiting out the count; sooner or later, Burnett will self-destruct with his inability to throw strikes.

That was the case April 25, when he threw 91 pitches in five innings, allowing eight runs while coughing up a 6-0 lead. On Tuesday, Burnett was even more horrendous, burning through 84 pitches in 2ª innings, walking five while allowing five runs (three earned) before finally being yanked off the mound by Joe Girardi.

The Yankees are learning there’s a not-so-subtle difference between Burnett’s A-game and how he performs when he’s a tick below dominant. One American League talent evaluator recently said, “The one thing I would say about [Burnett] is that he struggles to adapt when he’s not on. Great pitchers make adjustments, they figure it out one way or another. But Burnett doesn’t do that often enough.”

IMO, a five year $82 million contract is a vast overpayment based on the foregoing facts, particularly when the Yankees were purportedly going to grow their own rotation.

Rather than block Hughes or Joba in the rotation, I think the smart play is put AJ in the pen where he can max out his velocity for an inning or two, and he will have less time to let the circumstances of the game impact his mindset.

I would like to point, however, that as critical as I am of Cashman with regard to this decision, I completely dissociate myself from the non-fact based rantings of another poster here.

@ 25

Not surprisingly, you're using specious facts to argue.

The Yankees aren't paying *Josh Beckett* $85 million to throw 44 balls out of 84 pitches in 2.2 innings.

The other problem is Beckett has shown he's capable of very good seasons (145 ERA+) and shut down performances on the way to world championships. Burnett has never topped 122 ERA+. And his walk rate is always going to do him in. Always. He's a chucker.

It was a terrible signing. Those with clear eyes saw it at the time. The rest of us are slowly catching on.

[23]

36. RIYank
June 8th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Mo needs to watch more film. That’s probably right.
I don’t know why Eiland is the pitching coach instead of you, PJ! This team should be in first place with the best record in the AL, instead of…

That appears to be a comment dripping with sarcasm to me RYI, at least in terms of the English language we all agreed upon...

Numbers can be deceiving. If you think these Yankees are a "first place team," then you simply haven't been paying attention to how they've been playing against teams from Boston and Philly so far this season! I only thank the Lord they don't play against L.A. Then we'd hear from all of the Joe Torre apologists, too! I would argue Torre is to blame for the soft way the Yankees play against the best teams in baseball these days, especially the Red Sox! You can't turn it on and off like a switch.

I mean, didn't Toronto fool some folks with their first six weeks to start their season? Beating mediocre and bad teams is just another recipe for an early exit from the playoffs, if this "first place team" can even make them.

Someone said in the game thread last night... I'm paraphrasing...

"It only took two innings in Boston to squash all of the good feelings a month of .720 ball produced."

Comment of the year nominee...

Time for golf.

@ 26

Wait, you seriously expect the "smart play" from the same guy that signed him and Pavano? Why even talk about it then? They're never going to send Burnett to the pen. Never. Ever. Ever.

[28] “It only took two innings in Boston to squash all of the good feelings a month of .720 ball produced.”

That's only true if the Yankees don't fight back in this series. I think they will.

@ 26

You may not like my ranting, but when you personally start putting the pieces together and blaming the GM for all of the horrible moves? When does he become accountable in your eyes?

[26] An ERA+ of 110 isn't a bad thing...it might not be worth $16mn per year, but that doesn't mean Burnett, or the signing, are horrible.

Clearly, Burnett can be very inconsistent. Even last year's season had peaks and valleys. The Yankees have to hope that his highs more than outweigh his lows because consistency isn't his hallmark. I'd wait a little longer before deciding that he is a bust.

For what it's worth, and I am not really sure how they determine these values, but the following are fangraph's calculation of AJ Burnett's value over the past for seasons:

2005 $17.3
2006 $11.8
2007 $11.4
2008 $25.5

@ 32

Why do you keep ignoring the other facts? Using an ERA+ to justify a contract is absurd.

No one thinks Ted Lilly is worth $85 million and he has a 105 career ERA+.

It was a terrible signing because of how much they overpaid, his inconsistency, and his health history. Cliff said all three this winter.

But of course, you'll keeping sticking to ERA+...

Well that game sucked. A.J. sucked and the offense sucked.

Love the Wacky Package sticker Alex. Brought a smile to my face, which it needed this a.m. I used to have a whole bunch of them along with my baseball cards. Gotta see if I still have them somewhere.

@ 33

Fangraphs is always high on their values. Nice how you only go back to 2005 though. He's only been worth his current contract exactly twice in his career.

[32] An ERA+ of 110 isn’t a bad thing…it might not be worth $16mn per year, but that doesn’t mean Burnett, or the signing, are horrible.

No, it's not, but it means that a player is 10% above average.

As of April 2008, the average salary of a starting pitcher according USA Today was $4.26 million. As such, AJ is grossly overpaid.

As for the FanGraphs salaries based on WAR, granted they are impressive, but what I am seeing is a pitcher that is showing a tendency to meltdown under pressure, which WAR doesn't take into account.

Plus, as I said, he is blocking Hughes.

So while he may not be a bust, I just don't think it was a wise expenditure of resources.

Anyway, I want to be wrong. It's time for a correction, AJ.

[22]He’s simply buckling under the pressure because of a lack of experience in these types of games in my opinion.

[26] My perception about AJ to this point is that he is a pitcher who lets the circumstances of the game overwhelm is ability to repeat his delivery, which appeared to take place in both games v. Boston as well as in his start v. Toronto.

It actually surprises me. Pitching for the Jays last year, he thrived on the "big stage" vs the Sox and the Yanks. He didn't buckle, under - he buckled down! I wonder what has made the difference this year.

Girardi took the blame for last night due to the extended rest. In a way it makes sense - Burnett cannot adjust in any way, shape or form so they need to be sensitive to that if he's gonna continue to pitch for the team.

It's a little disconcerting that the Yanks' #3 (2?) and their #1 are volatile in "big" games. We've seen it from Sabathia a few times too.

[38] It actually surprises me. Pitching for the Jays last year, he thrived on the “big stage” vs the Sox and the Yanks. He didn’t buckle, under - he buckled down! I wonder what has made the difference this year.

Maybe because there is so much more on the line in terms of team goals?

I could more easily dismiss last night's debacle if it wasn't for blowing the big lead in his previous start against them.

[25] Perhaps I should have said hurting. Never should have miffed that ball. Could be having balance problems. Not getting around on inside pitches. Like Tiger, he may be back, but he is not back.

As for AJ, he doesn't know where his pitches are going and he doesn't throw inside.

[37] To be fair, the "average" salary of a starting pitcher does not denote what an "average" starter is paid. For example, Tim Lincecum earned $405K last year, but I think we can all agree he is worth a lot more than that. The reserve clause artifically keeps "average" salaries lower than what they would be.

So, while Burnett might not be worth $16mn, I don't think he is ridiculously overpaid for his level of performance to date. Also, I don't think being 10% better than average is anything to sneeze at.

I can't speak for the "melt down" theory because I haven't watched him enough to feel confident making such an assessment, but I do know he has been a rather inconsistent pitcher throughout his career. What you are seeing as melting down may just be poor outings.

Finally, Burnett really isn’t blocking Hughes. If Hughes and Joba are really on innings limits, then neither can be expected to start more than 25 games. In other words, a hybrid role is likely (and was always likely) in the cards for both. If the Yankees manage both pitchers correctly, they should both be able to step into the rotation full-time next year, at which point Pettitte may eventually decide to retire, or the Yankees may opt to part company.

[38] I think there is at least a little something to having too much rest being a culprit. From the get go, Burnett's mechanics seemed completely out of rhythm, so maybe that was the result of having his routine altered.

Ah, well, this is why I dodge game threads ... and without even looking I can see what was going on by reading the 39 posts here! I did post (depressing myself with prescience) that the dumping on CashGirar would turn to some player-assault in a big hurry is we lost a few. I didn't think it would be ONE game. (And my guess was Matsui, but Girardi sat him ... Nady will be back soon, we'll see how that plays out for our hydra-headed DH options).

AJ was bad, we wouldn't have won last night with any of our starters. Period. I mentioned that, too, yesterday: Beckett is back 'on' after a shaky start. We were 1 hit by him (and barely a hit) and got one more mighty single (also close to an error). The signing was roundfly (and I elieve rightly) a source of displeasure here, but it was not a signing that was outside the bidding levels established for Burnett. In other words, Cashman wasn't on 'a frolic of his own' as the lawyers say. Judging long-term deals based on a spring is an iffy exercise, at best. I don't like the signing, I'm content to watch for awhile. The irony is that in NY, the money matters so much less. The pressure on the other hand ... is SO much more. We're part of it.

I will aggressively dodge tonight's game thread too (sorry OYF) as Wakefield can embarrass people following a 96 mph starter (and his reliever) and Wang is ... not there yet.

I'll also add, for what it is worth, that the Jays' losing streak is over and they are not going away. I think they will, but it ain't a reality yet. The AL East may be the strongest division in history.

[43] If you avoid the game thread, then the terrorists win :)

[44] laugh of the morning, william ... can't I do political commentary for the morning edition of the paper ... er, Banter? Offer my paltry attempts at balancing their assaults? I cling (desperately) to the idea that this is all (Banter, baseball, summer coming) supposed to be FUN.

[28] That was me! Where and when do I pick up my reward?

[40] As for AJ, he doesn’t know where his pitches are going and he doesn’t throw inside.

That about sums it up.

Look, I think Cashman would tell you they gambled a bit on AJ. As of right now it hasn't worked out.

[45] A bad loss to the Red Sox when the record was already 0-5 will rarely result in fun ... A place this is like a super-collider for the negativity engendered by a game like that.

I think there is at least a little something to having too much rest being a culprit.

If that's the case, then he's an idiot for getting himself suspended.

[48] Great point...that suspension still looms on the horizon. Hopefully, Eiland with work with him on dealing with the layoff.

I think it's a BS suspension. As I said before, Beckett's earlier transgression was worse but he never missed his turn in the rotation.

@ 46

A $85 million "gamble"? That makes sense.

Meanwhile, Cashman has never "copped" to anything. We only hear about what he wasn't responsible for. When have we ever heard about his screwups? Didn't happen with Pavano. Igawa he passed the buck.

Norton!? YOU are a bum. A BUM!!!

[51] No one said it made sense, except you just now.

[43] Yes, the longer threads have turned decidedly un-fun of late. Can we go back to debating Ichiro, or some other pleasant, un-hostile, baseball-related, across-the-bar banter?