nomaas has a webster's definition up on their site: apathy

[0] "This is a team slump."

Team slumps are unacceptable.

That little girl would have ate the Hell out of the spinach we had tonight!

If this doesn't make you feel better, nothing will...

We substituted one cup of white wine for the water. Yeah I know, it's sneaky, but well worth it!

Enjoy!

http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Salmon-with-Spinach-Sauce/Detail.aspx

: )

Well, I had a blast @ Cooperstown today. Kevin Maas still looks pretty good, though his stance is a bit more upright now.

What started off as a fun exhibition got serious towards the end. A college kid was called in to pitch, and he was dealing. Almost nailed Jeff Kent a couple of times

Bringing in Tomko was such an obviously stupid move, but no one in the press corp pressed Girardi on the issue. For all the talk about how tough the NY media is, they seem to never ask the tough question. With easy targets like Arod they can be a pack of wolves, but for some reason, they seem to let Girardi off easy. Maybe it's because they sense he is firmly in place as a result of the Yankees unwillingness to fire Torre's replacement so soon after his departure? Still, I can't believe no one has begun the drumbeat questioning Girardi's stature.

[4] Still, I can’t believe no one has begun the drumbeat questioning Girardi’s stature.

Besides you, of course. ; )

[6] Prediction time: who thinks that Tomko is DFA'd. His ERA is over 5 and WHIP over 1.4, before today?

[5] Unfortunately, I don't have the same readership...at least not yet.

[6] I don't think so for the same reason Girardi isn't fired. DFA'ing him so soon after blowing the game would amount to the admission of a mistake, and these Yankees don't do that.

[4] [5] BOOM boom boom boom BOOM boom boom boom BOOM boom boom boom!

Wait, so Burnett is going to miss a start? I can't believe that suspension held up.

[6] "Prediction time"

SUBJECT: Brett Tomko

His ERA is 6.28, his WHIP is 1.47, and his BAA is .344 including today's game.

He's already as bad as Veras, Albaladejo, and Ramirez. I sure hope they don't give him as many innings as those other three got or his stats will be even worse!

I believe they won't make any moves unless there is an injury during this road trip, so he should last through these next two series...

Therefore, I say he's gone after June 28TH, one week from today. Using him during this week will yield similar results.

*hangs head*

[9] Burnett's suspension was reduced to five games, just like Beckett's before him, hence the missed turn.

These humps today can't even plunk hitters correctly!

Pedro Martinez just fell out of his hammock under the mango tree at that statement!

: )

[10] I agree...he'll be gone within a week. This is a 'bad' time to dump him because they don't know about CC's injury, and AJ has to miss a day. Plus, Wang is still a work in progress. I think they let him linger in the back of the BP for another week, and then he will be replaced.

I wonder when Nady or Molina are coming back (I know, reports say "soon"). Either one of them returning to the 25 man roster would provide the necessary excuse to remove Tomko.

[11] I thought Beckett didn't miss a start?

[12] "Plus, Wang is still a work in progress."

Feeling charitable are we? ; )

I think they should drop Tomko's ass right now. Tonight. Sad excuse for a wake up call, what with him being a persona non grata, but you gotta work with what you got.

And what I got is two tickets to see the Yankees vs Orioles on July 20th! I never thought I'd go but I got em as a gift. Can I bring a pizza in there with me?

Sadly, dropping Tomko doesn't solve the core of the problem. Afterall, Tomko doesn't bring himself into games.

[12] I thought of that MP, but I think Berroa is gone when the first of Nady or Molina returns. Tomko may be gone when the second of those come back because supposedly A-Rod is now "fresh."

Meanwhile, Cano has been in each of their 69 games to date, so those DFA's may be reversed, but I hope they use Pena soon to spell Cano instead...

*rolls eyes*

[13] I understood them as saying Burnett's suspension begins with Tuesday's game, so he'll miss one start.

I could be wrong about that though...

[13] I *am* trying to work on charity. It is a virtue, or something like that. Everyone knows that I would have put Wang in the BP weeks ago, but that horse dead and gone. Anyway, he looked much better last time out (obviously), but I bet they still want to shadow him for a start or three more.

I agree with you that Tomko should be cut. Then again, I argued strongly during the spring that he should never have been signed to begin with. This being said, I think he lasts another week and then he's gone.

[16] CORRECTION

I understood his suspension began with today's game...

[16] He wont miss a start. It seems like Girardi completely pnaicked with C.C., so he likely starts Friday and AJ goes Saturday.

[15] I still think they use injurygate as an excuse to keep the extra, extra OF. So, I predict that Nady/Molina comes back and Tomko goes. I don't know, though--maybe not, because that would mean carrying "only" 11 pitchers. Hmmmm....

When does Marte get back? Or maybe we'll see Melancon.

Maybe it’s because they sense he is firmly in place as a result of the Yankees unwillingness to fire Torre’s replacement so soon after his departure?

I doubt that would be the case. If anything, that should be a reason the media would hammer him. I say they don't ask the questions because they don't know better. I base this on the drivel some of these beat writers put forth.

FWIW, I would've cut Tomko before Veras.

Did anyone catch Francesa interviewing Girardi last week? The manager seemed realllll uptight. Maybe I was reading into it, but it seemed to confirm my suspicions about him. I seriously wonder if he's cut out for this job, even for his own mental health. I guess he might be used to it and just goes around pissed off all day and night.

Btw I like Nady but I never thought I'd be looking forward to his return. Something, anything, to stir the pot a little.

I'm glad to hear Girardi panicked, frankly, because it's better than if Sabathia really was hurt. Sabathia at this point is my rock, somewhere sane amid the kooky ups and downs of this team. I mean, he has ups and downs too but it's like - three or four earned runs is a down.

wouldn't leaving your $180 million ace in a June game while he's experiencing some form of discomfort in his pitching arm qualify as a "panic" move?

[24] I don't think that's the word I'd use.

[19] I don't buy the panic idea, William. As I stated in the game thread, CC was all over the place, and when the Marlins hitters put the balls in play, they were rockets. It would have been ugly had CC remained in there, maybe uglier than it was in any event, and he could have aggravated his pitching arm even more in the process of remaining in the game. Obviously to me anyway, the Marlins had a full dose of Sabathia footage that they went over and over prior to today's game. They had after all, raked lefties so far this year.

Rather, I credit Girardi for spotting CC's shorter delivery and failing to fully complete it. Where Sabathia is concerned, I believe it best to err on the side of caution. They can ill afford missing him for two weeks or more at this pernt during their apparent "June Swoon."

[23] I watched that, Hawk. I think Girardi was angry at the team's results and performances, as well as Francesa's "expert" armchair managing idiocy. He is after all, one of the "Joe Torre apologists," who gives infinite credit for Torre's managerial skill in making the playoffs, yet conveniently ignores his playoff results during the last seven years of his tenure. Girardi has never received the benefit of the doubt from Francesa, while Torre got nothing but that for 12 years on that show because of the four titles in five years I contend fell straight into his lap. When Torre's pushed buttons began to fail regularly, he remained untouchable. Girardi has never enjoyed such a luxury to date. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if The Joe Girardi Show on YES replaces The Joe Girardi Report on Miked Up Moron if Francesa continues to treat Girardi like he's one of his callers! Joe Girardi is not to be confused with Steve from Bayside...

[26] Do you really think Francessa is hard on Girardi? He pretty much said he tries to tread lightly with him because he wants him on his show. Having said that, I am not sure how you can be too hard on Girardi when he makes blunders like bringing in Tomko.

[27] I do agree that Girardi should have left Aceves in today's game at least until he was gassed.

I believe Francesa has failed to remain relevant since Russo left the show and it's declining more rapidly than Johnny Damon's playing skills. Additionally, I believe he is both unprofessional and cruel to his callers who take contrary positions. I despise his "Roman Emperor Wave!" Why else are they giving away tens of thousands of dollars worth of Yankees and Mets tickets this month on his show? Because they are available?

LOL

He will be off of YES before Girardi, William. Girardi may have lost some games, but his players' collective failure to execute has been the single largest problem on that team since he took over, in my opinion.

As I have said before, this team is less than the sum of its parts, and changes need to be made with the decision makers.

[28] I think Francesa has become listenable since Russo left.

[28] Francesa may be a blowhard, but he gets ratings and provides content. He'll be on YES long after Girardi (which hopefully means for only a few more days).

Re: Girardi on Francesa, my observation was less about Girardi reacting to Francesa in particular, but rather his overall defensiveness. I've seen it in postgame interviews as well - he just seems to be fighting the urge to completely blow his stack at times. I don't think Francesa was rude or pushy, and any intensity he brought to it was the frustrated fan speaking.

Francesa does lay blame with Torre for '04 vs Red Sox. IMHO, 06 was not at all Torre's fault, except he probably should have stopped the midge game, but remember he had two terrible Wang performances in a five game series (well, four games). I don't really remember '05 except for them getting shut out by Kenny Rogers and some poor performances from Randy Johnson and ... Jaret Wright? ... phooey!

Francesa is tough to take without Russo. He's so ****ing repetitive! It's like he's malfunctioning. Nonetheless I listen or watch him ... I do appreciate his passion as a Yankee fan, even if he doesn't always make sense, or is too inflexible and pleased with himself.

For those old enough to remember "Hill Street Blues" (or have seen the reruns), Girardi is the most overcontrolled personality I have seen since Frank Furillo.

Also I think Torre earned the benefit of the doubt, at least much moreso than Girardi. Which is not to say Girardi doesn't deserve it, but there's no history to indicate he does. Hopefully this year he can start building up some trust in that regard ... Otherwise he's gone next season, anyway, I'd imagine.

[32] That's a good description - overcontrolled. His description of his relationship with Posada was golden ...."I smile. We laugh together." Damn that guy is wound tight! It seems crazy to me that he has the job, the more that I think about it.

I watch for the Sweeny Murti spots, the Joe Girardi Report, the occasional Cashman interview, and their fun with Sterling's calls.

I miss Tony Russo the most. Listening to his calls reminded me of my many conversations about the Yankees with my grandfather over the decades. If you wanted to know what my grandfather sounded like, Tony Russo was it, only in a deeper voice with a New England accent!

I also miss the yin and yang that was the two of them. Mad Dog kept Francesa honest, something Francesa clearly abuses these days on his own.

I miss "The General's Missives" too, with the Patton background music. The Yankees could certainly use a couple of those right about now.

I think Hal and Hank are the ones "in over their heads" more so than Girardi. To me they amount to traditional "ne'er-do-well" sons of wealthy men. Girardi has "been there, done that" as a player, and he flat out refuses to overuse any of the arms in that bullpen. I like that infinitely better than the way it used to be during the Joe Torre Era.

It's quite possible Girardi put Tomko in the high leverage situation with the two run lead today in order to see if he could handle it. Better to do that now against the Marlins in June than in September down the stretch run against Boston or Tampa. He did the same with Alby, Edwar, and Veras to see if they were really viable. Perhaps that came from Cashman. It seems to me that Girardi is looking for the arms he can trust over the long haul. Tomko is getting a look because of how he produced in SWB...

: )

Yeah I miss Tony Russo too. Man those were great calls.

Agreed about the Steinbrenner Bros. They really represent their own kind of yin and yang, the two types of leadership I don't want to see for the team: loudmouthed buffoonery and bland corporatism ... Ah well. It wasn't so great before either.

If the Ortiz revival is for real and the Dice-K exodus leads to Bucholz sticking in the rotation--both quite likely imo--the division is over. Anybody think we have a better team than the Rays? [checks bb-ref again]--wow, we really, really look like the 3rd best team in this division to me. Somebody talk me off the edge, please....

The only reason that Boston is in first is that they are 8-0 v. the Yankees. Does anyone really think they are that much better? Really? I don't.

The Yankees would be better than Boston if they played up to their true talent and used their players according to ability not sentiment. That means putting Hughes in he rotation.

I really don't care what Ortiz and Buchwhatever do.

He is after all, one of the “Joe Torre apologists,” who gives infinite credit for Torre’s managerial skill in making the playoffs, yet conveniently ignores his playoff results during the last seven years of his tenure.

With good reason. 2006 & 7 were perfect examples. We heard about the great managerial job Torre did during the regular season, only to get blown out of the playoffs in the first round. I find it hard to believe that Torre somehow forgot to manage during the playoffs.

You can find points in the season where the Yanks went 1-3, why should be be surprised when they do it during the playoffs?

Ortiz revival not for real. He hit a mistake for the homer. Two Ks after a single.

Mediocre gives them too much credit as a team. Jeter isn't supposed to ground out to lose the game. Loss goes to Brett why-is-he-here Tomko. A-Rod should take a month off. Girardi should take the rest of the season off. They should shut it down and play for better draft picks.

Francesa has repeatedly acknowledged that Torre's horrendous bullpen management in the 2004 ALCS (e.g., using an already overworked Tom Gordon with a NINE run lead in Game 3) was a large reason for the collapse. Of couse, anyone with a working brain would admit that same thing.

Which relates to:

[39] I find it hard to believe that Torre somehow forgot to manage during the playoffs.

I think the 2004 collapse changed the way Torre managed in the playoffs; he began to manage tight, and the players have played tight (as evidenced by the disparity between their regular season and postseason ISO Ds), in subsequent postseasons. I also think Torre was a better tactician when he had Zimmer at his side.

Obviously, the decline in starting pitcher also contributed, as has the parity inducing revenue sharing provisions of recent CBAs, and granted, luck has played a role as well.

Francesa hasn't made a valid point on the air since sometime around '99.

He can get credit for "steering the sports conversation" in NY as much as someone like Rush Limbaugh can be credited with steering the political discourse in the country...it may be true, but it isn't anything to be proud of.

He's a complete and utter Torre apologist, and this is coming from someone who was (all things considered) a Torre backer. The Yankees shortcomings from '02-'07 were never because of anything Torre did, but rather because "they had guys like Giambi"...what the hell kind of argument is that??

Francesa has repeatedly acknowledged that Torre’s horrendous bullpen management in the 2004 ALCS (e.g., using an already overworked Tom Gordon with a NINE run lead in Game 3) was a large reason for the collapse.

Regardless, they had Rivera on the mound with a lead in games 4 & 5. You could say that Torre went for the kill in game 4 by calling on Rivera in the 8th.

I think the 2004 collapse changed the way Torre managed in the playoffs; he began to manage tight,

Any examples? It looked to me that he managed the same way over the years. His "trusted" guys both failed and succeeded in the postseason from 96-07.

The Yankees shortcomings from ‘02-’07 were never because of anything Torre did, but rather because “they had guys like Giambi”…what the hell kind of argument is that??

It's a "sports radio" argument. Easy to discount until you listen to the type of people who listen and call in to his show.

[44] Oh I agree 100%, but thats what I'm saying...he trafficks in radio arguments.

The Red Sox are 8-0 because they're "gamers" and the Yankees "have no heart"...Sabathia "isn't as good as Santana" even though that is completely irrelevant..."all Torre ever did was make the playoffs" even though the results became consistently inconsistent as the years went on. It goes on and on.

All right, my neighbor was watering his outdoor plants.

???

[45] I don't think there's anything wrong with any of those statements. I mean, I don't agree necessarily, but those are legitimate takes on things.

• I was reading Pete Abraham and he said just a few of the Yankees were on the charter, the rest went out on their own. I suppose to see family or friends, or just to get away and relax. The question is, is that what this team needs right now, or do they need to be made to focus. Mandatory requirement that they all be on the charter. Mandatory work out, practice on Monday. I don’t know, I have no way of knowing I’m not with the team. However, it seems to me that this was the sort of thing that Joe Torre was good at. He would know when to take the heat for the team or a player. He would know when to get on their backs. He wasn’t always perfect or always right, but he did seem to get the team to finish strong no matter how they started a season.
I know Torre was never the best at using the bullpen, and I know he was no strategic General Patton, he really did miss Zimmer’s counsel. However I think that it is more than just a fluke that he is doing so well with the Dodgers. I know he wasn’t much before he came to the Yankees. He also didn’t have great teams. It is also possible that he learned a lot in his time with the Yankees and he is better than ever for it. I think sometimes people with no experience (like the geniuses at NoMaas) think strategy is everything and they forget the human elements of getting players in the proper frame of mind to compete over a long season. Good examples of this can be found throughout history. The best, favorite and most prepared do not always win. Many times it is those that want it more, are more motivated, that win in the end. I am sure that many can find fault with Francona’s moves over the years in Boston. Especially his first year, before they won it all that Red October. All the bloggers and journalists didn’t have much faith. Yet if I were to say what the real difference between the Sox and the Yankees is right now, it appears to me to be that the Sox want it more, they are more focused. Once again I am not spending time with these teams so I don’t know if I’m right. I can only go by what I see on TV and what I read in the papers and web.
This is not to say that Girardi is a bad manager. Or even to say that he is doing a bad job right now. There have been definitely moves I would have made differently in some games strategically. Sending Arod (or putting in a pinch runner who could steal) the other day in the ninth for example. There will always be moves that can be second guessed that is the nature of sports in general, but I think more so in baseball than any other. What I don’t know and can’t get a sense of is whether he is motivating this team in the best possible manner. Every player is different and needs a different tact. Is he good at judging how to get the best out of every single individual on that team? Or how about just most of them? We all know that Torre was much more successful at it than not. You can tell by the players that loved and respected him (Jeter) and the ones who did not (the malcontent Sheffield). I believe there is a very famous old saying about how you could tell as much about a man by who his enemies ( or just people who didn’t like him) are as you could by who his friends are.
I don’t know that Girardi is a good or bad manager yet, much less a good or bad guy. I hope for our sake as Yankee fans he succeeds. I liked Torre a lot, he was a class act (and I thought represented the Yankees well and brought them respect and admiration), but he is not coming back. I can only hope that Girardi is successful.
Sorry for the long post, but I had to get that off my chest. I am really sick and tired of the crap that a man gets after 12 for 12 in playoff appearances, 6 AL championships, and 4 World Championships.

[46] I guess my problem with it is that if they aren't expanded upon, they're just empty cliches and yet they're treated as bold pronouncements by so many people.

The classic example is the Joba to the pen argument. Francesa makes statements like "Joba has to relieve because he reminds me of Goose Gossage"...you can think he should be a reliever (although I disagree) and he can remind you of Gossage, but the latter is not some sort of justification of the former.

[47] Good post

[48] The idea of Joba as Gossage - first, I think someone else came up with that but anyway - the idea there is a big, intimidating force in relief. A pitcher with Gossage-like attributes best serves the team out of the pen. I'm not saying I agree but I do think there is a point to the comparison.

[43] Regardless, they had Rivera on the mound with a lead in games 4 & 5. You could say that Torre went for the kill in game 4 by calling on Rivera in the 8th.

By using the word "regardless," you are overlooking the very real possibility that overusing Gordon significantly reduced their margin for error, which, in a short series, doesn't have to be very large in order to have a huge impact.

Any examples? It looked to me that he managed the same way over the years. His “trusted” guys both failed and succeeded in the postseason from 96-07.

Just off the top of my head:

How about batting A-Rod 6th in Games 1 and 2, and 8th in Game 4, in the 2006 ALDS, which many players later said sent a message of panic to the team. Meanwhile, he batted Sheffield 4th in the three games he played even though he hardly hit either.

Or how about not taking the team off the field in the 2007 ALDS when the midges descended on the field, a non-move that Torre himself later admitted was a mistake.

By using the word “regardless,” you are overlooking the very real possibility that overusing Gordon significantly reduced their margin for error, which, in a short series, doesn’t have to be very large in order to have a huge impact.

In game 4, you had Rivera on the mound with a lead. 3 outs away from the World Series. That Torre used Gordon the night prior has no bearing on having a well rested (4 days?) Rivera ready for the kill in game 4. We hear all the time about having your best pitcher in to save the game. That's what Torre did in game 4. Torre then worked his pen backwards after Rivera blew the save. Then he went to the "formula" in game 5, going from Gordon to Rivera. Gordon had nothing, Rivera blew the save.

Batting Rodriguez 8th, I can see as being "tight" but not pulling the team off the field? Especially in the context that the Indians were playing under the same conditions? Or Posada not properly blocking the wild pitches (as he has done his entire career)

What about going to Hughes to replace Clemens? What about pitching Ohlendorf in relief of Wang? Using Mussina in relief of Wang? What about starting Bubba Crosby in CF? Or Going to Johnson in relief in game 5 of the 2005 ALDS? That doesn't sound like "tight" managing to me.

[47] I think sometimes people with no experience (like the geniuses at NoMaas) think strategy is everything and they forget the human elements of getting players in the proper frame of mind to compete over a long season.

There is some merit in much of your post (although I wish you would separate your paragraphs), but your criticism of NoMaas is patently unfair.

There were many reasons why the Yankees won four rings from 1996-2000, and Torre's presence undoubtedly provided a positive contribution (I assure you that the people at NoMaas know that), but that doesn't necessarily mean that his strategic weaknesses didn't play a role in their failure to win the WS in 2003 (Jeff Weaver for two IP) or 2004 (I already mentioned misusing Gordon), or their quick exits from the playoffs in 2005, 2006, and 2007.

Consequently, NoMaas was on solid ground when they highlighted Torre's strategic blunders because they laid a factual predicate for each one they criticized, including his failure to give some young relievers a chance by refusing to give them regular work unless they pitched well immediately, or his proclivity to overuse relievers not named Rivera who had some success (see the NTY article that Dilane linked on Proctor in which the surgeon said his ligament was "mush," and Torre's excuse was he should have told me there was a problem, when any reasonable person knows that most guys trying to make it in MLB aren't going to ever ask out no matter how they feel).

It's also inaccurate to say that the smart people at NoMaas don't recognize the role that the human element plays in managerial success merely because that never was the subject of their posts. Let's not forget that many people deified Torre, acting as if he was sacrosanct and immune to criticism, almost asking people to kiss his rings. NoMaas provided a necessary and imo, a welcome, counterpoint to that sycophantic absurdity.

Anyway, just because it was time for Torre to go, it doesn't necessarily mean that Girardi is the right man to guide the current team, even though I strongly thought he was when he was hired.

I have now concluded that he is a terrible fit for this team.

The Yankees should have fired Torre after the 2004 ALCS collapse, and they paid the price for letting him hang around for three additional seasons.

The Yankees should not make a similar mistake with Girardi.

[51] Then he went to the “formula” in game 5, going from Gordon to Rivera. Gordon had nothing, Rivera blew the save.

That's precisely my point. By needlessly using an already overworked Gordon in Game 3 with a nine run lead, he increased the chance that Gordon would be ineffective in subsequent games, as he was in Game 5:

T Gordon, H (4) 0.2 2 2 2 1 0 1 6.23

thereby reducing the team's margin for error.

Granted, Rivera could have obviated the need for Gordon in Game 5 by not screwing the pooch in Game 4, but he didn't, and as a result of Torre's prior overuse of Gordon, he had one less bullet in his chamber and it cost him (and the team) in Game 5, and as a result, the series.

Batting Rodriguez 8th, I can see as being “tight” but not pulling the team off the field?

Raf, Torre himself has admitted that he should have taken the team off the field.

What about going to Hughes to replace Clemens? What about pitching Ohlendorf in relief of Wang? Using Mussina in relief of Wang? What about starting Bubba Crosby in CF? Or Going to Johnson in relief in game 5 of the 2005 ALDS? That doesn’t sound like “tight” managing to me.

I view those moves as being made out of necessity, rather than offering any evidence of tightness or lack thereof, although the unfamiliarity of Crosby and Sheffield in the OF in Game 5 of the 2005 ALDS may have cost Mussina (and the team) a win.

[53] Gordon was also effective in game 4, tossing a couple of shutout innings after Rivera blew the save. That he wasn't effective in game 5, can simply be a case of a bad outing, not necessarily him being overworked. He had a bad outing in game 1 as well.

WRT the midges, I'm trying to see how that is an evidence of "tight" managing.

Anyway, just because it was time for Torre to go, it doesn’t necessarily mean that Girardi is the right man to guide the current team, even though I strongly thought he was when he was hired.

I was more indifferent than anything else, I didn't think Torre was that big a problem, and I hold both parties responsible for bungling the ending.

A lot has gone wrong the last couple of years, I don't think that even if Torre was retained for the 2008 season that the Yanks would made the playoffs. Firing Torre would've been a lot easier then.

[54] [55] Do you think that needlessly using an already overworked reliever in a blowout makes it more or less likely that he will be effective in subsequent outings, especially when Games 3, 4, and 5 were played consecutive days.. Also, Gordon was 36 years old and had already undergone major arm surgery. (btw, Not that it mattered, but Gordon was bad in Game 7 as well.)

With regard to the midges: I view it as tight managing because I think it is evidence of constricted thinking. That is, failing to consider and then utilize the option that one later realizes is the most optimal course to take.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Torre's mismanagement was the only or even the biggest reason they didn't win from 2001-2007. As Pat Riley has said, after a while, coaches (or managers) that remain in one place for a long time become stale, and the players don't respond in the same way.

And it's easier to change the manager than the players, which leads me to:

I give Girardi a pass for last season. The team is not playing up to their talent level this season, and imo, they look listless. It may not be entirely his fault, but sometimes change qua change is the only way to turn a team around, especially because it's very hard to trade veteran players for veteran players in an era of mega salaries.

My point regarding Gordon was that his ineffectiveness doesn't necessarily tie into his overwork. Especially since he had a bad outing in the first game of the series. Why does he get a pass for his bad outing in game 1, but the outing in game 5 the result of overwork?

WRT the bugs, I don't see it as tight managing, because even though Torre could've pulled his players off the field, the Indians played under the same conditions. In hindsight, he thinks he should have, but the Indians didn't think it was an issue, and the umpires didn't think it was an issue either; they also have the ability to stop the game if they see fit.

I understand where you're coming from WRT 2001-07, I'm just saying that from 1996-00, he has done the same WRT moves that made you scratch your head. There was luck then, just as there was luck from 2001-07. Rivera saves game 7 in 2001, Wells' back doesn't crap out in 2003, Rivera saves either games 4 or 5 in 2004, Johnson does better in 05, or the collision doesn't happen, or Rodriguez doesn't GIDP in 2005, etc, etc, etc, and the team success as well as Torre looks a whole lot better.

The issue I had with 2007 was that everyone was singing and praising his accolades for the work he had done in getting the Yanks to the playoffs, then all of a sudden they lose to the Indians then all of a sudden Torre doesn't know what he was doing. I felt it to be a bit unfair. And this coming from someone who hardly be called a Torre supporter.

I give (gave) Girardi a pass for last season. I kinda alluded to it by saying that Torre wouldn't have made the playoffs with the Yankees last year; they were overloaded with injuries and ineffectiveness, and IMO it finally caught up to them last year.

As for trading players, it can be done, it depends on how much a team is willing to eat, or how much a team is willing to give in return. The Johnson trades come to mind, as does the Abreu trade, as does the Brown trade (it just dawned on me that with the Brown and Rodriguez trades, the Yanks have taken on two "megacontracts" of recent history). If a team wants to get rid of a player bad enough, they will find a way.

[57] Well put. Truth is Yankees had some things go their way early on, ‘96-’00 and some things work against them ‘01-’07. All the stat guys agree that there are many times that a sample size is too small to make a judgment about a player. How some people don’t realize that in short series’, like the playoffs, anything can happen and the best team doesn’t always win. Fact is in ‘96 the Yankees were not better than the Braves, but hey, they won.
This is not to quash the debate about some of the moves that were made, but I find it highly doubtful that Torre forgot how to manage all of a sudden. BTW Gordon worst playoff pitcher ever, he wasn’t overworked he just sucked in the playoffs. All his life.

I think what Girardi has proven is that every manager, even those advertised as well-prepared or even "cutting edge", make mistakes. I see that as a lowest common denominator almost. I've gotten annoyed with Torre and Girardi in that way many times, and who knows who's right and wrong half the time.

The thing that recommended Torre was his overall approach and disposition. It was just a good fit for that team, for this city. That being said, I think someone sitting in the same position year after year does get stale and it just needs to change after a while. Particularly with this team, some members of which still have the "we'll be fine" attitude when it hasn't been appropriate for nearly a decade ... Torre was very much part of that vibe. Girardi tries to put it forth; I don't know if he feels the need to because that's been the Yankee spiel for so long, but it comes off as either stupid or disingenuous.

Torre definitely believed it, and had reason to as he'd seen so much success. He just didn't know when the window had closed. They probably should have fired him after 2004, it was a fireable result but at that point success still was relatively recent. It would have seemed rash, I think. I do believe the playoffs are often a crapshoot, but mainly the five game series, and even if that was bad luck, it was just too much.

Anyway, I always thought Girardi lacked the stature to fill Torre's shoes. As I've said recently, it seems insane that he got the job considering his lack of experience and the potential issues among the veteran stars of the team. Ah well.

[58] This is not to quash the debate about some of the moves that were made, but I find it highly doubtful that Torre forgot how to manage all of a sudden. BTW Gordon worst playoff pitcher ever, he wasn’t overworked he just sucked in the playoffs. All his life.

This just such nonsense.

Torre is a good manager when he has great talent. That's why is career managerial record was under .500 before he got to the Yankees, and why he won four rings when he had the benefit of tremendous talent and a huge payroll when he was handed the keys to a Yankee team that Stick and Buck built from scratch.

But your point about Gordon is even more ridiculous, and in order to rebut it, I will use your won words:

All the stat guys agree that there are many times that a sample size is too small to make a judgment about a player.

Gordon has pitched 21.2 career playoff innings, but somehow you think he is the "worst playoff pitcher ever" despite that tiny sample size, which you just said is so important when judging a player.

Yet you mocked the intelligence of the people at NoMaas? At least they can make a point without rebutting it in the their next paragraph.

Great work.

[60] I will give you a point. I was a little too liberal with the hyperbole when I said that Gordon was the worst playoff pitcher ever. I am not even going to look that up, and I am sure there have been worse. Yet referring too anyone's playoff stats, save a few Yankees, is going to necessarily refer to a small sample size. Not too many players have significant playoff experience. Yet Gordon's 21 appearances and 21.2 innings are more than most relievers (I tried to find out how many pitchers appeared in more postseason games than Gordon since 1990, yet I am unskilled and couldn't come up with the information, if someone wants to help I would be obliged). And he has been very bad (17 runs in 21.2 innings bad, and once again I can't find what percentage of inherited runners he allowed to score). No doubt about it, he has been terrible. Also Gordon, and it was obvious, and you can go back and look at the games, looked like he was going to get sick on the mound in the playoffs (seriously what was up with him?). Are you sure you want to base your arguments on the pitching prowess of Flash Gordon? Gordon's legacy with the Yankees is what Ramiro Mendoza's was with the Red Sox. What did they call him, oh yeah, the "Embedded One".
As for the Torre only does well with great teams crap, I mention in [47] that he is a better manager now than he ever was, besides what manager wins with a bad team? Seriously, how many bad teams have won the WS? I mean in 2001 the Yankees were 87-74, was that a bad team? Since 1990 the worst team record wise were the 2006 Cardinals, were they a bad team? He managed the Mets in 77-81, could anyone have taken those teams to the playoffs? He managed the Braves for 3 years took them to the playoffs once. He managed the Cardinals from 90-95. His best season was 93, his best players that year: Hitter - Greg Jefferies and Pitcher - Bob Tewksbury. He was supposed to do what with that team now? Seriously, McCarthy and Stengel working together couldn't have helped that team. You can't win the Kentucky Derby riding a mule. Torre also kept growing and learning during his stint with the Yankees. I don't see how you can call the Dodgers a great team. They are a good team (9th overall in payroll, 5th in the NL, outside of Manny (who is out) they have no major stars, except maybe now Broxton and Billingsley, who are young and have just started building a decent resume) and he has done very well with them last year and so far this year.
As for the geniuses at NoMass, you can nitpick all you want in baseball. There is no manager out there who hasn't been second guessed. But, and you'll like this, the stats are what they are. Torre's stats with the Yankees are 12 seasons, .605 winning percentage, 100% playoff appearances, 50% AL Championships, and 33% WS Championships. How many managers can you say have a record like that with a team? Yet these geniuses at NoMass, ridiculed the man, attacked him personally, and come off as arrogant know-it-alls who think they could have done better. Yet they don't even have the guts to use their real names on their site like many other bloggers do. They love Brian Cashman. I think Cashman has been average at best at his job, and totally outdone by Theo Epstien in Boston. How anyone could ever say that Cashman is better at his job than Torre was at his, is disingenuous at best, an idiot at worst. Yet they tout Cashman as a genius. I think Cashman can do the job, and hopefully he will get better, but his stats, are spotty. He has more failures than he has had successes. He has yet to produce an all-star from the minors. Where's our Papelbon, Pedroia or Youklis? We haven't had a Pettite, Jeter, Posada, Rivera in years. Yes there is Cano ( 1 AS appearance in 4 years, and that was 3 years ago), we can safely say that he has not shown yet that he is on the level of the players I just mentioned. How long has Cash been GM? Where are our all-stars?
You are right that Stick and Buck built that team. And it was talented, yet Buck can't win a playoff series. That team in 1996 was a good team, but it was not the best team, yet Torre won it all with them. In the end, it is results that matter and very few, what maybe McCarthy and Stengel, have ever had the success that Torre has had. Ultimately, the players' performances are what determines a team's success, that's why they make more than the managers. I can't prove what percent of a team’s success is due to the manager. All you can go by are the final results, and Torre's were impressive with the Yankees. I am not arguing so much that he shouldn't have been let go (maybe it was time for a change, I don't think it was, but everyone can have their opinion), as I am that we should give the man the respect he deserves. He is in the Yankee's top 3 of managers of all-time. If you factor in the multiple levels of playoffs, the greater number of teams competing, you can make a case that he was the Yankees GOAT Manager. He should have been and still should be treated better. Really, what was he supposed to have done, win 12 WS? Also, please do not bring up the Yankee's financial advantages; they have had those ever since they got Ruth from the Red Sox, so that does not come into play.

BTW, why do you defend NoMaas, are you one of the anonymous posters there?

Typo above, the 2001 Yankees was meant to be the 2000 Yankees.