I love watching Derek Jeter play baseball but reading about him has become a chore. It’s exhausting: He’s the best hitting shortstop ever, he’s the worst fielding shortstop ever. He’s overrated. Nah, nah, says Joe Pos, this season Jeter might be underrated (as Diane noted earlier).
Jeter is many things to many people. Remember that bumper crop of shortstops he came up with the mid-late ’90s? Jeter is still at it, still productive. One thing is for sure: he’s a first-ballot Hall of Famer. And he’s ours.
. . . now if only we could find him a nice girl ...
When Nomar, Arod and Jeter were manning SS, ti seemed like they would be rivals forever. Of course, Arod's trade to the Yankees took care of that, but Nomar's drop off the table sealed the deal.
Interestingly, Kenny SIngleton pointed out on Monday (via Sweeney Murti) that Arod, Jeter and Nomar were all in the ballpark on Monday, and neither them was playing SS (Jeter was the DH).
Alex, to me, in the wrong crowd, even discussing Deter Jeter has become a chore. Why? Joe Pos almost captures why in the piece you linked, but he doesn't quite get it right.
Rob Neyer gets it exactly right:
Whatever the reason - a need to have their own generation's "perfect" hero in the Gerhig/DiMaggio/Mantle mold, perhaps? - there are plenty of Yankee fans who will not, who cannot, open their minds even a crack to accept any criticism of Derek Jeter, from anyone.
Trying to objectively discuss Derek Jeter with such a person is beyond exasperating.
Well, the only reason that A-Rod isn't the best SS ever (or at least second to Wagner) is that he moved in deference to Jeter, which was not in the team's best interests, but Jeter does deserve props, especially for his renaissance this season.
[3] An addendum - the craziest thing is, there's no reason for this generation of fans to deify Derek Jeter. They already have a "perfect" hero in the Gehrig/DiMaggio/Mantle mode, and he wears #42.
[3] I agree with you, but why should a Yankee fan have to be objective about Derek Jeter? Isn't part of the fun about sports being able to deify players and immortalize events?
[5] What's wrong with having 2?
[6] Because objectivity is essential to living a well grounded life? The failure allows other team's fans to take the high ground by being objective about him.
I don't think sports figures should be viewed as heroes.
[7]
Cause monotheocracies (sp?) are easier to maintain?
[8] Nothing about being a sports fanatic is well grounded. It is an alternate reality. I just don't agree that being objective represents a high ground when it comes be a sports fan.
[9] I think that anyone whom you want to be hero, should be viewed as a hero.
[10] Hmmm...I don't know about that. Polytheism has been around alot longer.
i have thoroughly enjoyed watching jeter play ss for the yankees. i identified with him some (especially when he first came up and i was younger) - skinny short stops (though i had great range :}) that weren't major power hitters, mixed ethnicity, wanted to win, blah, blah, blah
but i also like alex for different reasons and wish they didn't have to compared and contrasted and pitted against each other so much. it has created this exasperating situation about both of them - where i wish both could just be appreciated with reason.
anyway this is jeter's time back in the sun. i really don't think there will be many more articles on him -- he'd have to break pete rose's record to get this much attention again and that's not happening.
[7] Nothing.
But one can have an objective discussion about Mo. His failures are discussed reasonably. Try telling a trueJeterbeliever that Jeter's defense has been sub-par in recent seasons, and let me know what you get in return.
[6] [8] Because its hard to compare anyone to a deity and not have the deity come out on top, every time, just because he's a deity. It sucks all the fun out of having a good discussion - good banter, if you will - about Derek Jeter, if the person you're trying to banter with keeps repeating "Jeter is awesome! His defense is awesome! The guys who say he isn't are a bunch of nerd losers!" etc.
To put it another way, its like trying to discuss Joe Girardi with Bum Rush. Not exactly a lot of fun, having your head banged against the same brick wall, day after day, is it?
http://www.dustfreestorage.com/images/DerekRookie.JPG
Jeter's my hero b/c he lived the life I wanted. I spent much of my youth thinking and telling people I was going to play for the Yankees. He actually did it for Mo's sake. Being the same age makes me respect him even more (waking up with aches for no apparent reason). When he finally hangs it up, I will officially feel like my prime is long gone.
[14] That's "deification" I can believe in!
Then there's "Bill James says Jeter is the worst defender at SS? Then Bill James is a $##$@*( $#$(((( moron who knows nothing!" deification.
[7] Roger Maris asked the same question as many fans booed him on his way to 61 HRs. I tend to think that most fans are not motivated enough to think beyond what the so-called "experts" (sports media personalities, particularly writers) tell them.
[15] speaking of deification, try telling someone that bill james is an asswipe! (he is, by the way)
being as huge a bernie fan as i always was, i kind of resented jeter. i thought he got more attention because he was better looking (though i personally think that's arguable) and whiter, while bernie was the better player. and i still do think that bernie was better at the time. but over time i've come to realize that jeter is just about as good as it gets. he's been so good for so long. and whereas mo is almost perfect, it's a little easier to relate to jeter since he's really just a great mortal player.
[17] I think it's cosmic irony that Bill James' favorite ballplayer is Joe Morgan.
[16] On the other hand, Derek's never been booed as extensively and vociferously as Mickey was before Maris joined the team in 1960. The Mick went from ARod status to "deity" almost overnight in the minds of the fans.
[18] I thought it was Craig Biggio, but I could definitely be wrong.
Morgan was an incredible ballplayer. If I had never heard him call a game, he'd probably be one of my favorites, too. Unfortunately, I have.
He is as bad at broadcasting as he was good at playing baseball.
The love for the skinny Captain will only grow. The new subtext, and the one that will last forever, is that he's PED-free. People rightly believe that he competed against numerous pitchers and hitters who took illegal stuff and was still great although he played at a competitve disadvantage.
"I played high school football at 185 and played big league baseball at 182...Respect."--Ryne Sandberg
[5] of course no player is perfect, but for fans who are looking for perfection, it might be easier to find it in Jeter because his failures as a position player, or as a hitter aren't as apparent as those of a closer. We can easily point to the few occasions where Mo didn't get the job done. The Alomar, the Luis Gonzalez moments. To be sure, Jeter isn't perfect, but it's not as easy to remember him failing in a big spot. The first thing everybody remembers are the Mr. November home run, and the ridiculous flip play - hence the perception of perfection.
[17] I agree that, as a person, James often comes across in his writing as a pompous ass. That he has a life-long disgust with all things Yankees due to the thrashing of the Royals in the 70s doesn't always help.
But there's a big difference between how a person acts and what that person knows.
to add to [22]. When a closer closes out a game, he's doing what he's supposed to do. When a hitter hits a home run after midnight in November, or comes out of nowhere with the flip play, he's doing something unexpected, something we havent seen before.
It's easier to build the myth of perfection around those moments.
[18]
Morgan the player is a great choice ...
Morgan the baseball analyst .... well ...
[23] But you can't POSSIBLY be criticizing Bill James! If anyone in this world is infallible its the Mystic Seer of the Van de Kamp Baked Beans warehouse!
[15] And yet James has been in the forefront of proclaiming that defensive statistics are essentially worthless. Even the new ones like zone rating and such are not near where offensive & pitching stats are. But then again, how many regular ML shortstops are there currently playing (say, 85% of the team's games), how long do their careers last, and is their offense enough to make up their defensive woes or defensive prowess make up for offensive woes.
Jeter's a great overall SS, considering the history of ML SSs. But yes, he does have his flaws. Mo is otherworldly.
The thing about Jeter and Mo that I'll always remember is their consistency. They could both be relied upon year after year to do their jobs, and to do nothing off the field to embarrass themselves, their team, or their fans. That might be boring, or bland to some -- but to have excelled as they have in the era that they have, in the manner that they have is something beyond special.
I don't think you could say enough good things about either of those guys.
[13] In that case, you just don't have the discussion with him. My point is if a Yankee fan wants to deify Jeter, good for him. I don't see why that should make someone like Neyer get annoyed by Jeter. Some fans like to look at the game objectively...others like to deify their heros. I don't see a problem with that.
[27] Yet even Mo has his flaws as well--namely, despite his insane success in 1996, he now seems to have serious difficulties performing in non-save situations.
Obviously no player is perfect. But we have been extremely lucky to enjoy the long career that Jeter has had...and one that has been so far devoid of much of the drama and nonsense that surround other big stars.
[29] The very act of "rooting" for one team or another, or for one player or another simply because of the color of his uniform, is hardly an "objective" pursuit to begin with. Yes, the Jeter-an-do-no-wrong crowd is awfully annoying. Then again, I think that this crowd is sort of a straw man that has been erected by Jeter's more vocal critics. Maybe it's just the outlets that I choose to read, but in the last few years the critics have been far more strident.
[31] the Jeter-can-do-no-wrong crowd is certainly not well represented around here. Most here can rationally discuss Jeter's mistakes or shortcomings.
You hear some Jeter-can-do-no-wronging on NY talk radio.
Guys like Kay, Francesa, Sterling have always been generally dismissive of, or oblivious to the criticism about Jeter's range.
The populist position on Jeter has always been (even when he's not playing well) that he's the least of the team's problems. That's pretty much where I've stood regarding Jeter all these years. I havent ignored his mistakes or shortcomings, but I've seen no point in dwelling on them because his successor, whoever that is, won't be around for awhile.
I just wonder if Neyer is has annoyed by the Ripken-can-do-no-wrong crowd, or does it only annoy him when the deity wears pinstripes?
[33] Don't know. But I'll imagine his inbox and chats haven't been bombarded by Ripken deifiers for years, as they have with Jeter deifiers.
[32] Very true. But people who aren't willing to open their minds to new ideas don't last in a place where discussing new ideas flourishes.
Apart from the Banter, I seem to know far too many of the "Jeter-can-do-no-wrong" crowd.
[33] I really hate Ripken.
I have nothing else to add, I just always really REALLY disliked Ripken.
[13] Or better yet when a Yankees fan brings up "t3h R1nGZ" when talking about the Yankees organization, comparing and contrasting them with others, WRT, oh, just about everything.
[33] He probably was, sometime during the streak, during those times where Ripken was hurting the team. I still roll my eyes when people claim that he "saved baseball" in 1995.
[34] Of course he hasn't; Ripken's been retired for years :D