Derek Jeter might be the biggest Yankee since Mickey Mantle if you take everything into consideration, but Mariano Rivera is on his own level, he’s from his own special place. He’s the Silver Surfer of baseball players–Intergalactically blessed. Able to stare down trouble and stay cool as a cucumber. It’s not just the results, of course, it’s the style. He is the most elegant baseball player I’ve ever seen.
Over at ESPN, Rob Neyer weighs in what makes Mo great:
Rivera’s career ERA in the regular season is 2.25, which of course is brilliant. But his postseason ERA — and we’re talking about 133 innings — is 0.74. And that’s not just an ERA fluke. While Rivera always does everything well, he does almost everything better in the postseason. Rivera’s strikeout rate actually is lower in the postseason, but he more than makes up for that with a lower walk rate.
But it’s the home runs that really tell the tale. In his regular-season career, Rivera has given up 0.5 home runs per nine innings, which, depending on where you set the innings cutoff, might be viewed as the all-time record. In the postseason, though? Rivera has allowed 0.14 home runs per nine innings — two home runs in 133 innings. There’s some luck there, of course. On the other hand, Rivera has done all of that against good (or great) teams, the vast majority of them with good (or great) lineups.
I don’t usually have lists of my top five favorite movies or books. But if I had to pick a favorite actor, it would probably be Gene Hackman. And if I had to pick a favorite athlete, it could easily be Mo.
Mariano..simply, the G.O.A.T.
Btw, am now very dissapointed in Joe Poznanski, lame and pointless blog post about the Yankees payroll..can people give it a rest already??
Not only that, he got the outs last night while suffering from an undisclosed "rib injury." Mo is just beautiful to watch.
[1] Imma let you finish Mr OK Jazz, but I say - screw everybody and their payroll articles. I'm basking in the afterglow!
[0] I really really really hope Mo pitches for another 5 years after 2010 - and then another 5 after that. And so on, and so forth. My favorite pictures from last night might be the ones that capture Mo will the huge smile on his face, where he's yelling in pure joy - its so nice to be able to see him get to react that way again.
mo is other worldly. i know we joke about mo as a god - but there really is something about mo that just seems he is on a different plane than mere mortals. every single time he pitches i knowl i am watching extreme greatness. it has been and continues to be a privilege and a joy to watch him - and i want to keep watching him as long as he keeps bowing.
Neyer is crazy: There is no luck anywhere near Mo. He is simply the greatest. "Elegant" is a great way of describing his persona and his play. As Jeter said, he is a once-in-a-lifetime player, unique. No one will ever close games with the style nor the stats of Mo.
I had a home jersey back in the 80s. It had No. 23 on the back. I'm going to get another one, and I've thought a lot about what number to get. It will be 42. I love Mo and I like the double meaning.
I really feel for whomever succeeds him as the Yanks' closer. It's an impossible act to follow.
[5] Neyer's Red Sox management worship and anti-Yankee bias is making me drop him from my baseball reading rotation.
Man, I had a #23 as well, and was also thinking of gettin #42 as my next one!
I don't even know what to say about Mariano Rivera. I dream about him, literally. I feel some uncanny mystical connection to him at times, the same feeling I get listening to a great symphony or looking at a great work of art. That Presence of Greatness feeling that comes from an encounter with the supra-mundane.
It's the feeling of awe. Genuine awe.
And of course, each year my thoughts turn more and more to Life without Mo and all I can do is be grateful that time is not yet upon us.
I know, the Yankees "have other men on their team," "but he makes the difference."
[3] That was my dream the other night. We won and all I saw was Mariano's broad smile in the middle of the dog pile and I felt a surge of joy. I woke up an realized it was only a dream and then, of course, became fearful that I'd just jinxed everything away.
Fortunately, it was a good omen, not a bad one.
One day, years and years from now, we'll tell our kids and grand kids about Mo, that he was the greatest of them all.
That set and delivery. That crystalline, fluid, compact, delicate, powerful, graceful delivery.
The backdoor cutter for a backwards K.
The broken bats.
The beatific poise under pressure.
Mariano Rivera, ladies and gentlemen. Mariano Rivera.
[6] Neyer lives here in Portland. I run into people I know on the street all the time. It's a little big city. If I ever run into him over in NW, the neighborhood where he lives, I'm going to call him out big time. It's egregious.
Yep, Mattingly was my favorite. I played 1B as well. As discussed, Mo is transcendent. Seems like a perfect replacement to symbolize the greatness of this team. And I really like that it was also Jackie Robinson's number, retired around MLB.
[5] My kid has a #2 jersey but it's way small on him by now. A friend called me the other day because she wanted to get him a new one for his birthday but told me they were out of #2, should she get #13?
No, I told her, get him #42.
And yes, as to the double meaning, I was thinking about that last night, about how fitting it was that his is the only #42 left and it suddenly occurred to me to ask, how in the hell did that work out? How cosmic is it that the one person still wearing that number is actually worthy of it?
[9] Yeah, really a neat coincidence. Hard to imagine another ballplayer today who would be worthy.
On a related note, I have always wanted to know more about Mo's background. All I ever heard about him was one of his relatives drowning in his pool, back several years ago. What's his family like? I guess I did see his two (?) boys with him after the ALCS. Is he a classic Latin American rags-to-riches story? Is he like the second richest guy in Panama? Beautiful country, BTW.
man, we are lucky to have seen this guy.
in the last year of the stadium, i went to one of the mets game (the one with the titanic carlos delgado homerun) and we sat out in the monument park seats. by about the sixth inning or so, the crown was kinda out of it, and i was about to get up and get something to eat when i heard the click-click of spikes on concrete. i turned around, and there was mo, strolling to the bullpen.
nobody else seemed to notice, and he saw me and gave me a little nod.
that's my stadium moment. when i have grandkids, i won't talk about seeing jeter or a rod, it will be mo.
because i'm a dork, i had the camera around my neck:
http://imgur.com/opQtV.jpg
[11] his father was a fisherman in panama and mo used to go out with him on the boat when he was younger. he has 3 boys - 2 who look like teenagers and 1 younger - who is extremely cute, but looks like a handful
[7] let's not forget his utter humility when doing interviews - especially after a huge win or a big loss.
[9] also, weeping... is that a genuine jersey? I'd like to get my son one, but it's hard to justify the bigger $ when he'll outgrow it reletively quickly. I'd be glad to buy it unless there are other plans. My son is 5 and is slight.
[12] was for [10]
i was out at meetings all day today, so i didn't get to comment on other threads. i was at a meeting this morning that i had a hard time concentrating - not just because i was tired, but i was still thinking so much about the game, how great it felt, and so on. the meeting finally ended and this guy siting near me put his yankee hat on. we started talking about how great it was - he was a huge matsui fan and he was so happy matsui won the mvp. then in the afternoon i had another meeting at a foster care agency - and i got there just as some kids were finishing lunch. many of these kids (probably 6th or 7th graders) have been through hell in their lives, but i started talking to them about the yankees and the win - most of them were too young to know the previous wins - and they were so happy and each had a random favorite player they were so happy for. the community and commonality that is sports and in particular a fan of a team like the yankees can be so wonderful.
[13] I think the one he has now is (it has buttons), but it was a gift.
[14] Beautiful, Ms. O.
Jeez, Silver Surfer. That is inspired, Alex. Perfect.
My kids got to see him pitch this summer. In retrospect, I am so grateful to Brian Bruney, who chucked a couple of gopher balls to create a Mo situation. Someday they will tell their grandchildren that they were present in the first season of YS2 and saw The Great Rivera.
Thanks be to Mo.
When describing DiMaggio, Yogi refers to him as "the perfect player." When I talk my dad and guys from his generation, they talk about Joe D. the same way. We talk about Mo like that.
Mo is Joe D. to Jeter's Mantle.
[14] Yeah, good stuff. Thanks.
The person who first described an athlete as having "ice water run through his veins" had to have been thinking of Mo, whether or not he (or she) knew it at the time. He is grace under pressure personified.
I've got a #2 Jeter road jersey that I bought at Stan's in 2006 for a pretty penny...I'm thinking a pinstriped Mo might be pretty nice as a companion (though I'd also like #15 or #23)
[17] No offense to you or Jeter, but I don't see Jeter as Mantle at all. Mantle was really a tragic figure who never fully realized his physical potential. Jeter, by all accounts, is supremely well-adjusted and seems to get every ounce out of his innate ability.
I actually see Jeter is closer to Joe D.
Mo, otoh, has broken the mold.
May have missed someone else commenting on this but..the Game 6 game thread below has exactly 42 pages..
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4624705&categoryid=2378529
Bobby V with some comments on Matsui here.
[22] i didn't comment on it - but i saw that too - very appropriate (as is winning 4 games to 2)
Wowzers, PeteAbe kinda takes it in the shorts from mostly former readers (since Boston fans don't seem too interested as of yet); I don't think he deserves all that, but he did set himself up with those remarks Raf referenced a few threads back. Only time will tell if he made the right decision to move up there. Meanwhile, I guess things are working out for us over hear AB, yes? (Oh, and belated tip of the cap to Ken for his classy congrats in our WS clinching thread last night!)
my mom is a 6th grade teacher at a private school on long island and called to tell me that she wore my pop's Mantle shirt to school today! how cool is that? she's also the dean!
then, she gave a point to all the yankee fans in her class. one kid protested and didn't want one. she took a point OFF of his grade! : )
Mo is simply the greatest ever. ever. period, end of. he induces feelings in my i've never had for an athlete. he's basically superhuman. i pretty much feel unworthy of watching him work. i am soooo thankful and grateful to have witnessed his entire career. we're all lucky as hell that that career has solely been in pinstripes.
Praise be to MO!!!
here are the boyz on letterman!!!
hey, look at that - i got #27 !!! : )
the boys are on Letterman right now!
these guys are just fuckin cool.
man, it's nice to see jorgie laugh!
that was actually a really funny segment! looking forward to the next part.
the crack at andy leaving was frickin' hilarious!
[30] andy is frickin' HUGE! my god. he looks like a giant john travolta. jeter's has a good tv personality going on. jorgie is having fun. really nice!!!
Maybe it's just me, but I love the payroll articles. It's like icing on the cake. We get to celebrate the Yankees accomplishment, and still be amused by the ugly faces of those trying to drown their sorrows with sour grapes. It's an added bonus of being a Yankee fan, in my opinion.
[32] Andy is huge...and Jeter's suits are ridiculous.
[31] yeah.. Dave-total deadpan-says, "Now Andy, you left for 3 years to go run a Dairy Queen or something, yeah?"
hilarious indeed.
Upper Deki!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matsui!!!
[35] that was it! i didn't wanna spoil it for anybody who maybe recorded it to watch it later. nice goin', man! ; )
it really was hysterical!!!
That Biff Henderson bit was pretty damn funny, too.
yeah, i'm generally not a fan of late night shows and i had to mute the intro portion, but the biff bit and yankees segments were all great!
braves signed everyday scottie proctor...
my road jersey is #15
my home jersey is #42
he is just the best and I am so glad that we can all recognise his brilliance and be witnesses to it. how lucky are we? And how great is the sight of the four amigoes up there with the trophy.
just feels good.
[29] I wanna see that. I gotta see that. How long before it's on YouTube? That's the only way we'll get it out here.
[43] it's definitely worth checkin' out!
[42] congrats, man - you got comment #42 on 42's thread! : )
I will buy a 55 for myself. I already have the batting practice one. They may become a collector's items. :>(( I tried to get my daughter a 13 (he's her favorite), but they don't have kids jersey's without the names on them (at the Stadium). I HATE the one's with the names on them. It defeats the purpose of buying an authentic Yankee jersey. I don't get it. Anyway, I was so angry, I ended up buying one without any number at all. That's the only authentic looking jersey they had for little kids at the stadium store.
[23] Is it me or does Bobby V sound like an idiot when he speaks. His voice and cadence really gets on my nervous. His voice reminds me of the frequent Bugs Bunny riff on Lenny from Of Mice & Men.
Oops. That should be noives, Doc.
[43] check out cbs.com after tomorrow or later. They put clips of the show online.
Actually, I just checked, and it's already there. http://tinyurl.com/ybnqkob
[48] Thanks a lot. I just watched it. Great fun. It's amazing how big those guys are.
Day & half late solo-game thread!
FOX pregame.."The key thing about pitching on 3 days rest is you have less stamina". Really, wow, thanks for that.
Bonus Joe & Tim outtake: when watching on mlb.com, you sometims get the sound feed during the commercials on your end..I just heard Timmah go "one-two! one-two! I can't hear a thing!" Joe replies "well, i can hear you fine.." it made me laugh for some reason.
Wow, Matsui really was all over Pedro in that first AB.
Nice, Timmah with the shout-out to Japan. "Matsui is really popular in Tokyo". Shockingly deep commentary there, would never have guessed it!
Endless talk about the NY Post Pedro headline..annoying, but more enlightening than Brett Gardners AB there..he whiffed badly on 85mph heat from Pedro..
Great AB there from Johnny Damon yet again! He turned out to be an awesome signing..
And all you people were right about Joe West..not even close with that strike call on A-Rod.
Matsui's single to plate two was awesome!
Andy P getting out of that jam in the 4th..I think that's the Keystone Lager "Key" to the game so far..huge missed chance for the Phillies. I wish FOX had kept showing Andy and Country Joe having their discussion!
Lovely, shots of Rudy, Bloomberg and some Navy admiral. I wonder if just once they could show someone like Amy Goodman or Buffy St. Marie at a baseball game. They'd be in the high upper deck of course.
Gardner just smoked that ball to end the 4th. That had to be enough evidence for Manuel to lifet Pedro..if Gardy hits a line drive like that, the big boys would be ready to clear the Stadium off those "fastballs".
Props to FOX for that cool Andy P montage! I wonder if he really will make the HOF..they have to count all those post-season wins. They count!!
What a double by Matsui! やばい松井！！
(and yes, Joe Buck's call was an 80watt bulb..what a douchelord!)
Marte really stepped up. Brilliant pitching to Utley!!
And it's over!! The mlb.com broadcast always ends awkwardly but this time very cool, a freeze frame of Girardi in a bear hug with a smile on his face! Time to check yesnetwork.com for some more post-game coverage. Solo-game thread, Fin!
WAS THIS A CLOSE WORLD SERIES?
Did you know, in the 2009 WS:
Philly out OPS us .782 (.781 reg) to .725 (.839 reg)
Our ERA of 4.58 was higher then our season ERA of 4.26
Philly's WHIP of 1.29 was just slightly better then was ours, 1.32
Philly has 4 guys with an OPS over .920... we had 3
Philly out-Homered us 11 to 6
Philly stole 5 bases, we stole 4 (NO CS in the Series)
Team best, in 21 AB (Utley)::::: .286 .400 1.048 1.448
Team best, in 13 AB (Matsui)::: .615 .643 1.385 2.027
Our 2nd best, in 20 AB (ARod): .250 .423 0.550 0.973
Pettitte: 11.2 IP, 1.457 WHIP, 5.40 ERA (not really that good)
CC in 13.2 IP: 3.29 and 1.244 vs Season of: 3.37 and 1.148
So, if 10 days ago, I told you that in this WS:
Philly would way out Homer us...
Philly would have a much better OPS...
Philly would have a very slighty better WHIP then us...
Philly would steal 1 more base then us...
What would you guess would be the outcome after 6 games?
I couldn't find the numbers, but I don't know of any other way....
We MUST have had a far better RISP then Philly!
Whowuddathunkit?
P.S. We scored 32 Runs, Philly scored 27.
--------------------------------------------------------
Total 2009 PS
ARod:: 52 AB, .365 .500 .808 1.308
Matsui: 43 AB, .349 .462 .674 1.136
Jeter::: 64 AB, .344 .432 .563 0.995
Teix:::: 61 AB, .180 .282 .311 0.593
What can you say about ARod? a .500 OBP?
And Jeter quietly had a stunning PS.... maybe the 2nd best of his career.
[40] Don't you mean you had to moot the intro portion?
[59] That was poetic and cool Jazz...well, it was jazz. Amazing how all the pieces worked in that last game. Melky out, no worries, Gardner in. Johnny out, no worries, J-Hair in (although he's not an outfield solution). Jeter hits. Jeter hits. Jeter hits. A-Rod walks, Godzilla knocks him in. Rinse and repeat as often as needed. Hughes not up to snuff, Marte comes out of nowhere and becomes the man. Mo...well, Mo is always Mo. They keep saying it, and it sounds like a cliché, but it's true: this was a TOTAL TEAM EFFORT. Man, I hope they bring Matsui back.
[60] I think those numbers tell us that numbers don't matter much in a Series. Over a long season those numbers provide cumulative or supporting evidence of how a team performed. Stas like WHIP I think are almost meaningless when evaluating a single postseason series. Look at Pettitte's walks in Game 6, what was it 5? but he didn't allow those runners to score.
Big plays, big hits, big pitches in big situations. That's what matters.
Plays like Damon's double-steal, or base-running mistakes made by, say, Abreu, mean more than hitting and pitching stats.
Teix on the stat sheet did not have a great postseason, but his glove saved who knows how many runs, and he came through with a few tremendous hits. When those plays don't get made, when those hits don't happen, the opposing team is allowed to stick around and rally. Defensively Tex had an outstanding postseason. With Giambi at first, we might not be parading today. Teix's OPS means nothing.
Playing good baseball wins championships, not stats like OPS, WHIP etc..
[63] Well... what about a stat called RISP? But yes, since there are no real numbers for big defensive plays, numbers don't tell the whole story.
"Playing good baseball" is often (not always) expressed by stats... which are just a history of much (not all) of what has transpired.
[63] Also, a stat I didn't post was ERA. Our ERA was basically a full point better then theirs (0.99).
There were 2 errors by each team over 6 games, and only 1 unearned run, which we scored.
[64] exactly, and you put it better than I did.
I think stats are very valuable in evaluating the big picture, they're more accurate I think than our memories and biases -- but in evaluating a short series they can deceive us, and what they miss can be a lot.
bottomline: I really think the only stat that matters in the postseason is team wins and losses. To that extent Hairston had a better postseason than Utley. Coke had a better postseason than Cliff Lee. That's just how I see it.
[63] Playing good baseball wins championships, not stats like OPS, WHIP etc..
I disagree. Playing good baseball is in fact reflected in the stats.There is no reason to posit a false dichotomy between the two. Moreover, I agree (in part) with your sentiment at [66], that they’re more accurate I think than our memories and biases.
Yes. Our memory of this series, won 4-2, might be of a more or less lopsided series, outside of Lee's dominance. In fact, the series was very close and, perhaps, the Yankees were fortunate to win in only 6. Take Pettitte's clinching win, for example. He gave up a pile of walks, but wriggled out of those tough spots with a couple of DPs. A bouncer through the hole here or there, and suddenly the game may look different. Utley batted with two on and his team down by four and struck out, another critical moment. A close look at the series shows just how close it was, and how things may have turned out differently had one or or three key events gone the other way.
And unsurprisingly that closeness is borne out in the stats.
[17] No offense taken. Obviously there was a tragic aspect to Mantle's career. But he still had an historically long and winning career with the Yanks and was the face of the franchise (and the sport) for two decades. He was also wonderfully self-effacing and loved and respected by his teammates. In these important respects, I see a parallel with Jeter, who will one day surpass Mantle as the all-time leader in games played by a Yankee and is also the face of the game today.
[67] I wasn't disputing that it was a close series.
I'm saying what does it matter that Philly had a higher OPS and a lower WHIP in this Series, and that they also out-homered the Yanks and stole more bases?
Despite those better numbers I wouldn't say they played better baseball than the Yankees. Would you?
[63] Agreed, wholeheartedly. Especially about Teix. He really did make all the plays and then some and thereby proved himself *extremely* valuable. This is why I hate looking the other way about a guy's glove. What happens when he slumps?
It's great that Teix can contribute even while he's lost at the plate. That really is valuable.
[63] The lineup is anchored by Teix (and Arod), and Teix didn't pull his weight there - I think he really hurt the team. His defense could never make up his terrible offensive numbers. It's not that he needed to have a great post season, even a slightly below average (for him) PS would have really changed each of the games. The good news is that he'll probably have some outsized post season numbers down the road to get us some regression to the mean.
I really really like Matsui - he's one of my top two favorite yankees, but doesn't anyone else feel that while he had a great series, Mariano's 5.1 innings of no earned run mostly high leverage pitching was pretty close?
[71] yeah, Tex really hurt the team with his 11th inning home run against the Twins in Game 2
his 3 run double against the Angels in Game 5? Killing us again, right?
his 4th inning home run to tie Game 2 (was it?) of the World Series? awful.
His 6 pitch walk in front of ARod's camera hitting home run? rally killer
His RBI in the World Series clinching Game 6? disgusting
Look, could he have had more hits? Yes. But you think he hurt the team?
Not that much as I see it. He's getting a ring today with the rest of the Yankees. Shouldn't we appreciate that before looking down the road for a regression to the mean?
[69] Despite those better numbers I wouldn’t say they played better baseball than the Yankees. Would you?
I think the phrase is highly subjective and I would avoid it altogether, ideally. If pressed, I would say they played just as good baseball as the Yankees---if we are talking about the subjective things often rolled up in the term, like bunting and defense and the like (for example, Teix flashed some fine leather, but so did Feliz; Johnny used his smarts on the base paths, Gardner played a somewhat poor CF, IMO, etc., etc.).
Rather, I would say that despite having certain better numbers, the Phillies lost the series (or the Yankees won, despite having worse numbers in several statistical categories). No more, no less.
[72] not getting a ring, getting a parade today
[72] Objectively speaking, it is almost certain that Teix hurt the Yankees in the WS...that his invisible bat probably did not make up for the alleged runs he saved with his glove (following this line of thinking, how many alleged runs did he lose in all the ABs where batted poorly). But so what?
I see no need to demonize a player because he had a rough series. At the same time, I see no need to exaggerate the contributions of players on the winning side in order to confirm a narrative that the team that wins must by definition "play better' (whatever that means), so the individuals had to play better too?
[75] listing his big postseason hits is exaggerating his contriubutions?
No, I'm just disputing the assessment that he somehow hurt the team.this postseason -- an argument I can't believe I'm having while I watch a championship parade
Peace out
oh, there's Tex now. Why is he smiling? Team hurter! Booo! Get yer postseason numbers up!
"Despite those better numbers I wouldn’t say they played better baseball than the Yankees. Would you?"
Well maybe... I guess it depends on how you define it. In the DS and CS, both Minn. and LA made errors in the field and on the bases. It was far from a clean series for them, and they lost it (and there was some help from the Umps) almost as much as we won it.
But Philly played well EXCEPT for RISP. Andy, with his 5.40 ERA managed to get out when he really needed them. Marte surprised with some very big outs. Ryan Howard, stat wise, contributed basically nothing.
We got the really big hits (Matsui's 2 out single, ARod's 2 out double) when we really needed them, and got the big outs when we really needed them.
When talking Offense, RISP may be the most important stat in the game. Getting only 4 baserunning but getting them all home works better then 12 baserunners and stranding all but 3.
I don't think you can say Philly played poorly EXCEPT for timing. They didn't come through when it really mattered, and we did. That alone is why we won. I can't say that we readically outplayed them... except in RISP.
My point in posting those Stats is just what MP [67] said. Despite the scores, it was really closer then it looked. Philly did not outplay us. I think both teams played well.
What's interesting is during the season we often bludgeoned team with offense but lost manty games due to poor RISP alone. In the Series, it was the other way around.
As I said above: Whowuddathunkit?
[76][77] Oh please. You are distorting what was said--there was no comment on his POST SEASON numbers, only hi invisible World Series numbers.
But I guess you're right. the Yankees won, everyone did great. No one played poorly. All other discussion must be shut down. A player canot be appreciated or rooted for if he is ever criticized, so no criticism or even objective evaluation is allowed.
oh, please, what? [79] There was a comment on his overall postseason numbers in [71] That's what I was responding to.
And I'm not saying a winning player can't be criticized, I'm saying his poor postseason numbers don't do justice to his contriubtions -- and to assert that he "hurt the team" this postseason while ignoring or downplaying his contributions doesn't seem to be an objective evaluation to me.
[80] all that said, mp, let's cyber-handshake on this and enjoy the day, yes?
we have all winter to debate Tex's or whomever's contributions, or lack thereof.
Just watched the Letterman clip online, seems like they had a lot of fun, but where was Mo?
Also, I thought it was funny how even though all of the guys (I think) are taller than Dave, or at least about the same height, but that Dave has his stage set up so that when they are all sitting, it looks like Dave is about 6 inches taller than anyone else.