[3] He definitely merits it. As an offensive catcher, he is already there. What remains is how one feels about him as a defender. His later reputation could be what sticks, but in his prime, Posada was also pretty good behind the plate.
i think po is. and i think he has had more a a hof career than andy or bernie (and i say that as a huge bernie fan). po's numbers as a catcher compare favorably to his contemporary competition as well as the historical standard for the hall at catcher.
in addition, although he was never an especially good defensive catcher he was not always the disaster he has been the last few years. although his offensive numbers pale compared to piazza, i think most baseball observers agree he was not as poor a catcher as piazza (not much of a standard i realize, but it is worth something).
basically, i think these numbers are hall worthy for a catcher:
a triple slash of 275/377/479
123 OPS+ with peak years around 130
369 wOBA
127 wRC+
[9] Bernie is middle of the pack among HoF CF'ers in most categories. The problem is the top of the list includes Mantle, DiMaggio, Mays, Cobb and Speaker.
i wonder if the fact that posada has sucked eggs in the postseason will hurt his cause.
and i also wonder if his sporadic usage in the championship years will be scrutinized. he missed the 96 series, only played 5 out of the 8 games in the 1998 and 1999 world series, and was on the bench to start 2 games of the 2009 series.
should just playing in postseason games add to the resume? or should you be expected to play well? i have no idea, but i imagine among players with a lot of postseason ABs, not many have stat lines that far off from their career totals.
i would def put posada in, i just think it's going to be more difficult for him than most others here.
OPS+
Piazza: 142 (sick for a Catcher!)
Mauer: 136 (on his way to the best is history?)
Cochrane: 128
Bench: 126
Hartnett: 126
Lombardi: 126
Yogi: 125
Campy: 123
Posada: 123
Fisk: 117
Carter: 115
Ivan; 107
Dickey: 101
In well over 100 years of MLB, there are only 13 (non negro league) Catchers in the Hall..... or about one per decade. Piazza is going in. Ivan should be there. Mauer should end up there. Will the fact that there have been so many quality Catchers post 1990 hurt Po's chances?
There is no doubt that Posada's bat plays HOF.
The only question is how much his D will hurt him is what is thought of as a primarily Defensive position.
posada's OPS in the postseason is 126 points below career avg. really bad, but among the 10 players with the most postseason ABs, there are 3 other guys who are even worse (lofton, tino and justice).
the other six are right around their career numbers, or close enough not to notice. manny and chipper aren't quite as good in the postseason, but are still awesome.
jeter, bernie, oneill and reggie are right on career stats or better.
so i think posada should not be punished for being bad in the postseason, but bernie should be highly rewarded.
We've had the Posada Hall of Fame discussion here at BB annually for the past few years, and each time he gets closer and closer.
He's pretty dang close. I bet he does better than Bernie.
1) Is that because he merits it or because we are being sentimental?
[2] Bernie really has a strong case, but he is the anti-Rice candidate. His reputation was always underwhelming compared to his statistics.
If Gary Carter's in the HoF, so should Jorge...
[3] He definitely merits it. As an offensive catcher, he is already there. What remains is how one feels about him as a defender. His later reputation could be what sticks, but in his prime, Posada was also pretty good behind the plate.
i think po is. and i think he has had more a a hof career than andy or bernie (and i say that as a huge bernie fan). po's numbers as a catcher compare favorably to his contemporary competition as well as the historical standard for the hall at catcher.
in addition, although he was never an especially good defensive catcher he was not always the disaster he has been the last few years. although his offensive numbers pale compared to piazza, i think most baseball observers agree he was not as poor a catcher as piazza (not much of a standard i realize, but it is worth something).
basically, i think these numbers are hall worthy for a catcher:
a triple slash of 275/377/479
123 OPS+ with peak years around 130
369 wOBA
127 wRC+
Here's a BB discussion on the topic from 2007: http://tinyurl.com/2hb8v5
The numbers were close then.
i should say i think bernie has a strong case too, but probably not as strong as po.
I think all those WS wins are going to help push Posada over the top. It will take a while, though.
[9] Bernie is middle of the pack among HoF CF'ers in most categories. The problem is the top of the list includes Mantle, DiMaggio, Mays, Cobb and Speaker.
[11] agreed - it's the cf competition that hampers bernie.
i wonder if the fact that posada has sucked eggs in the postseason will hurt his cause.
and i also wonder if his sporadic usage in the championship years will be scrutinized. he missed the 96 series, only played 5 out of the 8 games in the 1998 and 1999 world series, and was on the bench to start 2 games of the 2009 series.
should just playing in postseason games add to the resume? or should you be expected to play well? i have no idea, but i imagine among players with a lot of postseason ABs, not many have stat lines that far off from their career totals.
i would def put posada in, i just think it's going to be more difficult for him than most others here.
[13] I think it always helps your case to have been a vital part of a team that wins pennants and WS, regardless of how you play in the actual WS.
OPS+
Piazza: 142 (sick for a Catcher!)
Mauer: 136 (on his way to the best is history?)
Cochrane: 128
Bench: 126
Hartnett: 126
Lombardi: 126
Yogi: 125
Campy: 123
Posada: 123
Fisk: 117
Carter: 115
Ivan; 107
Dickey: 101
In well over 100 years of MLB, there are only 13 (non negro league) Catchers in the Hall..... or about one per decade. Piazza is going in. Ivan should be there. Mauer should end up there. Will the fact that there have been so many quality Catchers post 1990 hurt Po's chances?
There is no doubt that Posada's bat plays HOF.
The only question is how much his D will hurt him is what is thought of as a primarily Defensive position.
[13] [14] I agree with Matt. The sportswriters aren't going to remember that Posada didn't hit well in the post-season.
16) Funny how that would be a sticking point for some guys and not others.
posada's OPS in the postseason is 126 points below career avg. really bad, but among the 10 players with the most postseason ABs, there are 3 other guys who are even worse (lofton, tino and justice).
the other six are right around their career numbers, or close enough not to notice. manny and chipper aren't quite as good in the postseason, but are still awesome.
jeter, bernie, oneill and reggie are right on career stats or better.
so i think posada should not be punished for being bad in the postseason, but bernie should be highly rewarded.