Ugh, Hughes to the pen? What exactly does the kid have to do? He throws 8 shutout innings one start, struggles a little bit but wiggles out of it the next and his reward is the pen? If they use him a la Santana then I’m ok with it. If Hughes usage becomes Joba ver 2 I am going to be really upset.

I like Monkeypants' idea in the previous thread: Hughes will "piggyback" on a short-start Wang tomorrow. Hm, maybe day after tomorrow if the T-storms prevent this game from beginning.

It's not great, esp. not for Hughes. But it's one of the reasonable alternatives, none of which was great.

[1] i feel you tommy - but the flipside is should wang just be shuttered?
the good thing is this is a nice problem to have for this year - i understand it may not be the best for the long term in getting hughes; inning limits up.
why are the pushing cc back a day though?

I say it's better to have a surplus of hurlers, than not enough of them!

Even this beats sending Hughes back to SWB...

Of course we knew all along Wang took priority over Hughes in the rotation, once he became ready to start again and was cleared to do so.

[3] The answer is that we should have never signed Burnett. Hughes could produce that at a fraction of the cost and his development wouldn't be hindered.

I dunno if I like Wang coming back against the Rangers lineup, then I remember they don't have Hamilton (and Bradley is long gone), and I feel a little better.

Whoops! I almost forgot.

RE: The pic of the Empire State Building...

"Alive! It's alive! IT'S ALIVE!" - Gene Wilder in Young Frankenstein

http://www.ladyofthecake.com/mel/frank/sounds/alive.wav

: )

[5] Yeah, but then the team would be one injury away from a disaster. While Wang was "on the DL", who would have been pitching in Burnett's spot?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of our six starters went down for a longer period some time this summer. No, it's better to have six and have to figure out what to do with the extra.

Suboptimal.

Alternate Wang and Hughes starts, and have them relieve on their normal "throw days"?

Well, not the best for Hughes but you cannot have a pitcher of Wang's proven quality in the bullpen.

[10] But that doesn't explain why Wang is the nominal starter tomorrow v. Texas, especially when Hughes has been far more effective against them than Wang.

[11] "Proven quality" is often a retrospective rather than a prospective measure.

[12] Hughes has faced texas twice in 3 seasons. Neither has allowed a run against texas this year. Not sure what that means. Statistically speaking it means very little.

[13] what does that mean? Proven quality is measurable. Prospective measure is in large part measured based upon retrospective facts. Otherwise your just throwing pennies in a wishing well.

[14] Wang's ERA v. Texas from 2006-08 is 5.31 in 20 IP.

Hughes has dominated them virtually every time he has faced them.

Wang pitched 2 innings v. Texas this season.

Hughes has pitched 8.

[15] It means that just because Wang has been good in the past it doesn't necessarily mean that he will be good going forward.

We have a very small sample size of effective pitching from him this season.

[16] umm, completely meaningless and titled by one bad game from Wang in 2007 (two years ago). Hughes has faced them twice over 3 seasons.

[17] Umm, actually being good in the past is far more indicative of being good in the future than any other measure.

I agree, Rich! I would save Wang for the Mets and use Hughes for Texas tomorrow! Hopefully they will rectify that in short order.

Since Wang's "return," he hasn't even faced an order twice yet, for Christ's sakes!

Doh!

He had better have that sinker down and with the quickness if they proceed as planned.

It seems they can't even have six starters without screwing it up!

*sigh*

[18] It's hardly completely meaningless. It's an observation that has to be taken into account when assessing any given sample, along with other factors, like who has pitched better this season.

That is only true when a given player's most recent performances are typical of his past performances and that player is not rehabbing from a serious injury.

(*insert um before sentence...twice*)

[20] so you think they should be spot starting their pitchers based on who has done best against the various lineups?

[21] I think a player with Hughes's upside should be given deference.

My point above was simply about the timing of the move.

[20] Maybe the umms wouldn't be necessary if you didn't pull mis-leading statistics and had a better understanding of how to interpret statistics and when they are statistically insignificant.

[23] Dude, you're out of line.

There is nothing misleading about the stats I used because...wait for it...I included both the IP and the years.

Your ability to construct an argument is poor. Deal with it.

[22] i'm not sure that hughes' upside should be given deference to wangs' fairly long track record of success coupled with wang's recent good outings.

it is inevitable but i hope this doesn't completely devolve into hughes versus wang.
i still don't understand why wang is going tomorrow instead of cc - why isn't wang going friday?

also tex's takeout slide injured his ankle and he was scratched tonight - definitely hope no lingereing impact

[25] As I have stated to the insulting poster, if Wang's body of work this season had been consistent with his prior performances, I would agree, but his performances this season have largely been bad except for a few IP in relief. I need to see more before I believe that Wang is back.

I don't view it as anything except a compelling case for keeping Hughes in the rotation.

I think Nick Swisher should start the next game the Yankees play against the Rays, since he has never allowed a run against them!!!

Jeez.

[24] How did you expect me to respond to the assholish comment at [20]? You included a statistical anomaly in a small sample without acknowledging it. That is misleading. You also relied on statistically insignificant data while dismissing Wang's extensive record of success and dismissing it as "retrospective". It is no big deal except that your argumentation is weak at best. Am I supposed to not point this out?

Maybe I was gruff in my use of umms, and if so I apologize.

[26] i can see the different sides of this. the situation will not be entirely "fair" to one of them. hughues has not been stellar in all of his starts and we all know what wang has done this year. it is a tough call.

[29] Could you please tell me when to duck when you throw your keyboard at me?

I'm done wasting my time with you. People can read our posts and decide for themselves.

man, trippy thread header topic, it's been a thunder and lightning "show" here in LA this afternoon as well, allthough that's not nearly as exciting as it is with a real thunderstorm.

Regarding today's pitching shuffle, I think it's what needed to happen. CMW is the preferable choice to be starting over Hughes (if healthy) and the Yankees are at a point that having CMW in the bullpen begins to work against determining whether CMW can regain his effectiveness as a starter (since he would be losing the endurance to pitch as a starter and he can't be sent down to build it back up).

I assume Hughes shadows CMW until Wang shows he's healthy and effective, or isn't, in which case I'm assuming Hughes will regain his spot in the order while the FO figures out some way to deal with the CMW debacle. In any case, I'd expect this arrangement to last a couple of weeks at longest (since Hughes would be running into the endurance issues mentioned above).

Here are my two, less snarky thoughts:

1) This will all be moot within a few weeks when either Burnett or Pettitte goes down to their yearly injury.

2) Perhaps pitching one or two inning stints will show Hughes the importance of throwing strikes and going after hitters, which he has been lacking as a starter.

I've suggested all along that Hughes and Chamberlain should be on the same schedule, so that when Joba has one of his five-inning starts, you bring in Hughes to fill the gaps and avoid blowing out the bullpen every night.

What's the weather like in the Bronx? Will there be a game, and will it start on time?

[33] It shouldn't be about Wang v Hughes. There is no question that when he is healthy you move your #2 guy back into the rotation. The question is then who you move out or how you accommodate him.

I agree about Hughes' issues with throwing strikes. Ironically, Burnett burns me for the same reason. He nibbles when he shouldn't. In any case, this is a nice problem to have.

[31] Walk away from the computer and take a deep breath. In case you missed it, I apologized to you. You overstated your case. Not my problem.

[35] theoretically, no, but in a rough way, it is Wang vs Hughes, since Hughes is, by performance, as well as practicality (Burnett and his 80 million aren't moving to the pen) the last man in the SP line.

If Wang is better than Hughes, then Hughes becomes your 6th "best" starter and goes to the pen or goes down.

In any case, this is a good conversation to be having, much better than last year and the motley collection of Rasner, Ponson and Giese we had to choose from ...

*resists urge to engage*

[35] et al.

Hughes does seem to nibble. Then again, Joba has shown the same tendency even though he has better pure "stuff." This is what young pitchers tend to do, I think. I firmly believe that Hughes needs innings, starting, at the MLB level. I think that putting him in the BP--unless this is only for one week or two to save his innings--is detrimental to his development. He does not need to go back to AAA. He does not need to be the 8th inning guy, or the rarely if ever used "long man." My opinion would be different if I thought the organization would use him like young Santana, for longer BP stints. But they have shown basically no such tendency over the last several years.

As for Wang: yes, he can be a heck of a pitcher. But lest we forgot, he was NOT pitching all that well last season, then he got hurt. And he has been awful this year, and then hurt again. I think we have seen the top end of his production. Does this mean that I think he is awful? Of course not. But right now I would defer to Hughes in the rotation and continue to monitor Wang in the pen.

And finally, as numerous folks have observed, this is all probably much to do about nothing, since Pettitte or AJ or Wang (or even Hughes) will likely see time on the DL in the next few weeks, opening the rotation spot back up.

I would still use Hughes against Texas tomorrow and resume Wang's starts against the hapless Mets.

Mommy, why are some of the Banterites shouting at each other? I don't like it./

[39] Wang was 8-2 prior to getting hurt, wait for it, running the bases! I still can't get over that...

LOL

[41] They came here for an argument!

No they didn't! They came here for an argument!

: )

Someone had to to go to the pen and I think Hughes was the best choice. Eventually, I see him and Joba switching places for a stint, so to me the only important thing is that both get to about 140 innings with something left in the tank for October. The Yankees also need to find about Wang sooner than later. If they think he is ready, you have to give him a start.

I think this decision has the team's best short-term and long-term interests in mind and am glad they didn't drag it out.

Yay baseball!

I was at the game Michael Kay is starting at, when Jeter and Soriano were hit by Pedro and Mussina "never answered back." I think his allowing one run on two hits and nine freaking strikeouts in 8 innings was more than enough of an answer. The Yankees won the game, and the pennant in 2003, and that's what mattered. I don't think Mussina throwing at the Red Sox players' heads would have made them suddenly able to hit Josh Beckett in the World Series that year...

[41] let's hope this game gives us something to talk about -

Petttitte to the bullpen!

[45] Its Kay.

Oh boy

[42] He was 8-2, yet his ERA, ERA+, WHIP, and BB/9 were the worst of his career. As for getting hurt running the bases: it doesn't matter *how* he got hurt. The fact remains that he is recovering from injuries over the last two years, and during that time he has pitched worse than he did in his first three seasons.

Finally, as much as I have enjoyed watching him pitch, the naysayers have always pointed out that Wang's M.O.--very low K's, lots of ground balls, basically no HRs allowed--is pretty anomalous. I for one am, right now, rather skeptical that he can return to the same form he had in 2007 and before.

"Every schtick begins with Kay"

That throw by Damon was painful to watch.

[52] that play was painful

[50] For the first six weeks, he was actually pitching as well as he ever had, but then had a stretch of 4 poor outings. I wouldn't read too much into that, especially because he had rebounded with two very good ones before getting injured.

[52]

Do you go after Matt Holliday before July 31? If so, do you deal one of your top AAA pitchers?

I was just thinking about all this Wang/Hughes controversy. Did they push CC's start back?

Did Cano fall down?

[55] I don't think the Yankees have anymore AAA pitchers capable of netting Holliday. Regardless, I don't think the Yankees need another bat and Holliday isn't a great defensive left fielder.

[55] Let's be practical. Billy Beane is not going to accept anything less than Hughes + Chamberlain for Matt Holliday. I seriously doubt he'll go anywhere, and would be absolutely shocked if Beane traded him to the Yankees.

[50] wang had i belive 2 or so (someone with one of those fancy subscriptions who cares to check can) poor starts last year - which threw the numbers off - he was starting to pitch very well when he got hurt -

How could Pettitte miss that? Andy looks like he has nothing tonight.

[59]

Good point .... I was just throwing it out there ..

[56] yeah - good ole michael kay said it was to split up the leftys

[57] no it was off andy's leg

[56] Yes...I am sure the Mets are happy.

Pettitte is pitching like late career Al Leiter tonight .....

[63] What?

Is someone yelling "Hughes"

[67] not having pettitte and cc back to back - he is blabbing about it now

Hughes watches this start and says "WHO is getting sent to the 'pen?"

If Pettitte's back isn't 100%, it is in excusable for him to be on the mound right now, especially in light of the Wang situation.

[69] I understand what you said. I don't really understand what we're hoping to accomplish.

Chris Davis' facial hair is unfortunate

Even though the Yankees have been winning the games he starts, the weakest link in this rotation really seems to be Pettitte. I hate to say it, but he seems to be vulnerable when facing a good hitting team.

[72] this seems classic girardi with his fascination with handedness

nice throw melky

That's not a strikeout.

Melky stops the bleeding.

[74] He's 37 with a bad back and a hole in his elbow. We probably could have seen this coming.

Great throw by Melky...pitiful job by Pettitte. His location was so poor that I really hope his back isn't right, even though it would be very selffish of Pettitte to have taken the mound under those circumstances.

[75] Either that or one of his MOVEZ.

I completely stuck by my theory that he periodically gets bored and decides to make a move, any move.

incentive laden deals aren't always thhis greatest thing - most people make decisions based on what is incentivized

[81] That's why you have a manager...clearly influenced by the frustration of hindsight, but wouldn't it have made more sense to have Wang take Andy's start? Not only would that have ensured Pettitte was healthy, but given the Yankees a full audition for Wang before having to make a decision.

nice hit - but no one can tell me swish has decent speed

Andy's performance in the 1st inning of games, through the years
http://tinyurl.com/r8f3h6

[82] very much so - if i were the yankees i would have told pettitte we will give you credit for 8 innings for today's start - given wang an audition and pettitte a day off

[54][60] A quick scan of Wang's game logs for 2008 shows that in 5 of his 15 starts he allowed 5 or more ERs. I'm not sure his last two starts (very good) should count more than the previous four starts (awful). Maybe the two starts were a sign that he was going to take off, or maybe he would continue to have the same frustrating inconsistency that he showed all year (three great stars at the beginning of the year, followed by a couple of bad starts, etc...).

Looking at his season as a whole, which amounted to a bit less than half a full season's worth, he was frankly not that good. He was having overall his worst season, and it's hard to massage that away.

Feldman seems like the kind of guy you don't want to fall behind because of his offspeed.

I always think it's important to score a run after the other team scores.

Nice power walk from Robbie there.

I'll never forgive him for losing a footrace to Todd Jones that time.

well for their sake, at least none of them are in tom glavine's situation

[86] I think it is relevant that 4 of his poor starts were consecutive, and that absent that stretch he was actually as good as he had ever been. Clearly, however, it is always better to consider the full record. Still, I think it is inaccurate to suggest he was having his "worst season" because it was abbreviated.

Pettitte has NOTHING.

WTF .....the Pirates trade their only real hitter?

I am getting really frustrated with Pettitte right now. He has already made a throwing error, failed to catch a soft comebacker and had no clue about his location. It seems pretty clear that he isn't 100% and should never have taken the ball.

[91] But if you take out his four best starts, his season looks even worse!

it is inaccurate to suggest he was having his “worst season” because it was abbreviated.

I don't understand this at all. He WAS having his worst season. Your caveat is well taken--the season was abbreviated (and really, 15 starts is no small portion of a season). But basically ALL of his peripherals were the same or worse than the previous seasons. That can't be ignored just because he got hurt.

[91][95] And however we choose to interpret the 15 starts last year, we can agree that it has been more than a season since we have the seen the "real" Wang for an extended period.

[86] BR is funky tonight, but were his first fifteen starts of 08 that much worse than his first fifteen of 06?

Is Hughes warming up yet?

I miss Teixeira.

Isn't anyone warming in the pen?

[95] If he had 4 9 inning shutouts in a row amidst poor outings, I would look at that stretch with some doubt.

Let me clarify the statement he quoted. In 2006, Wang was much better in the second half. Had he only pitched a half season that year, it would have been his worst. It isn't fair to take partial numbers for 2008 and compare them to full seasons in 2006 and 2007. Furthermore, his peripherals weren't that much different that previous seasons (and some were better).

Hmmm...I'm following the game on Gameday and this thread. Pettitte may render the whole Hughes/Wang controversy "mute"...

Jeter is definitely showing off. : )

at least minimal damage this inning

[102] very true :}

[97] Here's the numbers, including the save.

http://tinyurl.com/pf3ucn

Po starts the nascent rally.

At least it wasn't a DP.

[96] I don't think I can agree with that either...over his first 9 starts, he did have a 2.90 ERA.

If Pettitte struggles at all, pull him.

I wouldn't have let Pettitte take the mound...in fact, I'd be upset with him for taking the ball, I would put him on the 15-day DL.

[108] Which included a start in which he gave up 8 runs and another where he gave up 10 hits in 6 innings. If 15 starts somehow don't count because it's not a full season, then picking nine games with that 15 shouldn't count either. He was super inconsistent last season, with worse peripherals (albeit not a lot worse), for 15 starts, and then got hurt.

We haven't seen 2007 Wang since, well, 2007. So, two season and two injuries and continued inconsistency later, I am somewhat skeptical that we will ever see 2007 Wang again.

Pettitte has got to eat up some innings b/c if Wang stinks tomorrow then that's mucho bullpen innings needed.

The Yankees are missing Tex' glove here.

did swisher even try to get that?

[112] even if he does well, i think he is only slated for ~75 pitches

[113] yeah 1b defense is not as over-rated as many claim

[95] Wang was having *his* worst season, true, but his worst is still better than most AL starting pitchers. It wasn't a bad partial season by any stretch of the imagination. It is difficult to assess a shortened season as a hot streak or cold streak are going to throw off the stats but we don't have anything else to work with obviously.

In any case, Wang was 8-2 with a 4.08 ERA. That would be second best on the staff this year and 1.5 lower than Hughes' ERA this year. He also averaged 6.3 IP per start which is much better than Hughes <5 IP per start so far this year. If you must compare the two. Only CC has a better ERA so far this year (which as about the same point as he got hurt last year). We have no way of knowing if he was going to continue to pitch well but I see no reason to think he wouldn't. If anything, he has been remarkably consistent in his career especially when compared with other MLB pitchers.

ouch - hope that doesn't f his swing up

Oscar worthy IMO.

Ouch. Jorge is tough though.

[111] My point is that Wang had very good and very bad stretches last season, and because he didn't get the chance to complete the year, it it futile to make comparisons to 2006 and 2007, especially when you consider the stats aren't that far off.

[116] Those are fair points. I'm skeptical that we will see 4.08 ERA Wang this year, but I guess we'll see soon enough.

Boo Pettitte. Boo. Boo : D

Ugh..late to the festivities..losing to Texas, Beckett the Grinch throwing a No-No..want to go home and back to bed...

btw, Beckett throwing a no-hitter? did anyone notice? Josh Beckett, of the BoSox, has a no-hitter going..(do jinxes work if it's on an un-related blog??)

Three Ks on three curves in the dirt...kind of incredible.

Meanwhile, the Pirates kind of took advantage of the Braves in that McLouth deal.

[123] Yes, jinxes do work. Are you informing us that Josh Beckett has a no hitter going?

Gardner is very fast.

Nice work, Gardy.

The kid is playing pretty well lately.

[126] Yes, I have heard that Beckett has a "no hitter" in progress. Locally, they would say 打安ありません。 Am sure there are some Spanish speakers who could teach us to say Senor Beckett has given up no hits..

Was hoping Jeter would extend the rally there...I don't think is going to be the kind of game where you can just chip away.

Re: Wang - I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to make projections based on his three starts this season. He's got a decent history of success, and three starts, while perhaps a troubling sign of things to come, were also injury-related (allegedly). I guess the point is, he's done enough good that those starts can be considered anomalies.

O'Neill in the booth makes me happy.

Come on Swish...what are you swinging at!

[123] Did you that Grinch reference from me or come up with it independently. If it's the latter, cheers!

Mr. Beckett is doing interesting things through 5 ....

EOM

Cmon Swisher, you got to get that run in..sometimes a walk is NOT as good as swinging the bat..

[123] All yours, Andre! Hat tip to ya, that was a great line.

C'mon Yanks!!!

Swish should be on 2nd.

[136] How did you know I was Andre??? Amazing.

Sending Swish is a bad move here.

My profession involves a bit of "sleuthing"..but in this case it was easy..Who else was the "Hawk" besides the great Andre Dawson? :)

Sit on one, Arod.

Hello.......A-Rod. Hello........Feldman!

[141] Ha! Sort of scary, but ha! nonetheless.

alright alex - bizarro kramer is begging you to do damage!

They always try that first pitch on A Rod. Usually he falls for it too!

That was the pitch! He usually kills that!

I'll take a fly ball here.

Ewwww

That is not what I wanted.

damn - that was NOT what we were looking for

Unf$%^ing believeable.

A Rod with men on base lately is pretty rough.

Well, that sucked.

That's why I was willing to take a fly ball. Because I'm afraid A Rod is slowly morphing back into ... A Rod.

o'neill is right - arod is in pull mode - he is so so much better when he uses the whole field - could be his hip

First place is in jeopardy tonight...

Pettitte can't get out right handers with just a curve.

I'm starting to wonder if A Rod's clutchiness when he first came back was really down to being rusty. He had forgotten how to get tight.

Hey can I deem A Rod the prospective goat of this game if the Yankees lose? Yes I can.

The Yankees have one run in this game...it came on a two out hit. Who drove that run in?

Off to watch Beckett, then Mythbusters .... back later.

[160] Beckett? Mythbusters?

It's becoming sad to watch Posada throw. Pena and he need to come up with a way to compensate for what has become a very poor throwing arm.

Apropos of nothing, It's pretty lame to flip back and forth between this game and the one the one in Detroit and see their best seats packed to the gills.

between the pushed back start and andy working slow and throwing so damn many pitches this is going to be a long night

Beckett is still no hitting the Tigers, through 6.

[163] Attendance in Detroit is done more than just about every other team in the majors.

No one will say it, but Pettitte'd decision to take the mound was shameful.

[165] who is pitching for the tigers?

[168] nm, i looked it up. Galaraga

[167] Agreed. Pettitte is taking the ball so he can reach those incentives. The dark side of those type of deals.

I also didn't understand why they announced Wang starting tomorrow, tonight before the game. Wasn't there a chance Andy's back locks up in the bottom of the first and they'd need a long man?

[167] you've said it (without any evidence except his poor performance) at least 4 times already

[144] It's all the yoga, helps clear the mind and sharpen focus! :) Dawson should be in the HOF by the way..

[167] 4th inning, and Texas bullpen is wretched..lots of time left.

Is Beckett still throwing a no-hitter??

[160] I'll join you at Mythbusters, Diane.

Phew.

[171] I am sure I am not the only one who repeats himself.

good god swish is slow

many players take the field all the time while hurt when money has nothing to do with it.
moreover, teams are often giving players the shaft when it comes to money (see the braves and tom glavine if he really was ready to pitch) - so i don't hold it against the player to get his money fom the team - even if that is what this night ia about (which isn't guarnateed to be so)

I really hope Cano was running hard out of the box.

[172] 8 outs to go. He won't get it.

what the fuck? did he blink?

I hate this game

Granderson breaks up the No no, in the seventh.

Granderson singles..now hopefully they can come back and score some runs!

ah well done granderson

Joshy-poo loses the no hitter.

if girardi had any indication that pettitte's back is hurting, i think he'd have pulled him, at least when he had an excuse. it's not like this is the first time pettitte has ever had a shaky start.

[185] Pettitte hasn't walked this many in 10 years. Also, I am not sure if you saw the video of Pettitte trying to cover 1B, but if his back isn't hurting, something else must be.

Pettitte should be given credit for gutting it through 5. His control was garbage, but out of the 7 hits allowed most were bloops and bleeders. 16 wins in 20 games with a few stellar starts can make some forget pitching ain't all that easy.

Detroit's offense isn't very good. Only 3 starters have an OPS+ over 87.

[187] I couldn't disagree more...he shouldn't be given credit for giving up 4 runs and only going 5 innings. Not only did he dig the team an early hole, but the Yankees now have to get 4 innings from the pen on the eve of Wang's first start. That's not helping the team.

[189] oh come on i've seen you disagree more than that

This game sucks.

http://tinyurl.com/oqkzpr

I say "shaggy"..

Oh good. Tomko.

[189] I wish every Yankee starter went 7 innings every time out. But that is unrealistic. In a wonderful string of games, they're bound to get a clunker to two.

[192] Definitely the mullet.

[194] That's fair, but I think this clunker was the result of Pettitte taking the mound in less than full health. With the Yankees easing Wang back into the rotation, this would have been the perfect spot.

That's really a great throw.

That's an awful call.

[196] If Wang is at 80 pitches through 4 or gets banged around tonight, then tne Yanks are again in the same boat, without the Phil insurance they have tomorrow. Most pitchers, if honest, would say they are rarely in full health.

i love when an umpire changes his strike zone halfway through the game. and when yes shows a promo for one of their shows instead of a replay of a close call.