Al, I don't know if it's the stuffed pig's ear in my belly, but I'm not going to get too riled up about it. Bullpen is better than it was this morning, at least there's that.
Too much $, but I'm pretty confident that it's going to make us feel happier over the next three years.
Look at it this way: we have Soriano, the Rays have Farns.
i don't really give a shit about what the pundits say. I live in Saaaaxland. Great move. See through Cashmaaaan's eyes. Contend with me, he says. And I see the Wettland future.
Sori isn't the second coming of Steve Karsay is he? The money stuff doesn't ever really concern me with the Yanks. Ain't my money. Yanks are made to spend, and often, or at least every once in a while, overspend.
[8] The money only concerns me if it impinges upon other moves. I just hope there is something left over under the mattress to sign some OF-bench depth.
a) The money is more than Boras was asking and no one else was paying that.
b) The pick was in a deep draft.
c) The player is just not that good - he's never been worth $10M in a season in his entire career.
d) When was the last time a relief pitcher the Yankees signed worked out well? Farnsworth, Karsay, and Marte....and now they spend even more? After overpaying for Feliciano?
e) Even if they turn around and trade Joba they're selling very, very low on him, two years after he was ranked the best pitching prospect in the game. Worse, if they were to trade Joba it will cement the fact they could have gotten Halladay two years ago.
I really, really, really don't like this move one bit. If they were so bent on relief pitching they could have signed Jenks. Awful.
At this point, if one thing is crystal fuggin clear, it is that the Yankees do not believe Joba Chamberlain has the "right stuff" to start. They might be wrong, they might have botched giving him a fair shot at it in the first place, but they absofruitly think he's some sort of a chump as a starter. They'll likely take a chance on a Bonderman type of starter for the time being.
The other thing that is clear is that the Yanks will make at least one big pitching move before the trading deadline this summer. We KNOW this. Perhaps they'll get two starters.
The key is for them to stay healthy, otherwise they could have a season much like the Sox did last year. But if they remain healthy, they'll be in the mix, and then they'll go for the juggular, make a big move and try and bust it open.
i dunno, my initial reaction, is that i don't like it. at all.
too many years, waaaay too much money. we give a division rival a 1st round draft pick, PLUS a 1st round supplemental pick. all for a need that just doesn't seem that pressing to me. or, at least, a need that could be filled somewhat easily and certainly *much* more cheaply.
soriano is an extreme flyball pitcher and has had elbow issues. i think he's gonna say to himself: 'well, shit, i've got my money and i don't even have the stress of having to close' and will go out there and throw cheese. then, he'll get hurt. then, he'll get raises each year.
and i hate this $14 mil. in the 3rd year. last thing i want, is anything or anyone trying to push Mo out at the end of his 2-yr deal. if Mo wants back, he should come back. i don't think Soriano - three years from now, after not having been a closer for 2 years - is gonna be the in-house answer.
[9] Well, as of now they have an 8-man bullpen; Logan, Marte, Feliciano, Soriano, Chamberlain, Robertson, Fish and Turpen. I don't know if Schlitter and Sanchez are on the roster.
We really can't believe much of what Cashman says publicly. Just last week, he said no on Soriano, that he wasn't willing to give up a first round draft choice for him. And now he signs Soriano. Guess he was bluffing.
Personally, I'm not as hung up on draft choices as others are. A late first-round pick is hardly a cinch to make the major leagues. If it's a top ten pick, that's one thing. But once you get past those early picks, it's pretty much a crap shoot.
I dunno, this signing doesn't make any sense, for the reasons Paul mentioned in [13].
I can see if Cashman invited a bunch of prospective starters to camp, or even if he signed a couple of them, but to add to the pen? And to overpay at that?
[19] I'd love to see Joba start, but it's not gonna happen unless he's starting for another team. Regarding the 8-man BP: I would not be surprised if they carry 13 pitchers for the whole year (they did it a bunch last season).
[14] That's way too polyanna for me. This move smacks of $50M to Kei Igawa just because. It's disgusting overkill and exactly what i hate most about this organization.
As for Joba, he's been better than Hughes as a starter. And Hughes has been better in the bullpen, ergo....
Why didn't they trade Montero and Joba for Halladay? When they were willing to trade Montero for a lesser pitcher in Lee and make a Joba a middle reliever for life? By the way, Halladay signed for three years...
I agree about the signing. It doesn't hurt and probably helps, even if not much and for too much $$$. It still doesn't really address the bigger weaknesses of the current roster. But improvement is still improvement.
[38] I certainly don't think it hurts the team in 2011 (I think Feliciano will, either directly or indirectly). But I think the Yankees are basically where they were when the day started. Medicore starting pitching, offense that you hope father time hasn't caught up to. Just now they have a better bullpen. Maybe this allows them to trade Joba for a starter.
[52] We all do at one point or another, up by 9 runs, 2 outs in the bottom of the 8th, we've all "hit" that "big" fly at one point or another to pad are stats.
I'm not enamored of this move. But I think that has more to do with Steve Karsay, Kyle Farnsworth, Damaso Marte, LaTroy Hawkins, Octavio Dotel, Felix Heredia, Gabe White...ok I'll stop
Point is I think a lot of the tsuris over this has to do with factors that have NOTHING to do with Rafael Soriano, who very well might be the best reliever in baseball not named Mo. So for that I'm willing to at least give it till, oh around April 10th, before I decry it as the death of the franchise.
[55] hey man, remember when Danny Tartabull was a "Rated Rookie" for like four years straight, or something crazy like that?!
i dug him back in the day. it seemed like every year, i'd get a pack o' cards, and he was a 'rated rookie'. i guess that had to be donruss. and, iirc, he was a rated rook for both the M's and the Royales. some feat!
[56] the dollars are nutty, that I won't argue. But I decided a long time ago not to stress about how this team spends money, because no matter what they say there always seems to be plenty of it lying around. I think any time you throw money at a reliever its a generally headscratching move, but I get throwing money at Soriano way more than I would getting say, Fuentes, who is clearly just a disaster waiting to happen.
[57] haha, the Bull's younger years were slightly before my time but I could definitely see that. My favorite memories of him are that bomb he hit to LF the last day before the strike of '94...and Seinfeld, that about covers it. But I had his poster in my room when I was 10 and that was really all the prompting I needed to throw my support behind him.
Oh and when he said NY would never win anything during Spring Training in '96 because they let Stanley go.
[58] haha! okay, i think i was 10 when his very first card came out. i believe he was still a Rated Rookie when i was 13! i've got 'em all at 'home-home" - somewhere at my parents. i'm pretty sure i know where. i think i liked him enough - and thought his cards were 'worth' enough! - to put 'em in the plastic sleeve in a loose-leaf binder. those are still in the top of 'my' closet.
not sure when i'm gonna make it back to NY - might be mid-april. i'll try to remember to look and post on the banter. by then, it'll be fun to gauge everyone's thoughts on Soriano. me - i think he'll be injured by then...
whoa! i just went to 'preview' my comment and it says "anonymous" and not "thelarmis". f**k the heck?!
What's not to like about the deal? The bullpen is better. The team is better. Everything is better. We easily have the best bullpen in the East now, perhaps the entire AL. Who cares about the money?
Grrrr..my comments now being denied even from my Mac sometimes..
Summary of my two bits: Who cares about the $, Yanks can afford it. This guy is no Karsay or Krazy Kyle, Yanks now have the two best relievers in the division. How is this in any way a bad move?
Hey, I already said I think the money is too high, but what's with all the groaning? (Except from our Far East contingent, of course.) Here are three options.
1. Keep all the money in the bank.
2. Spend the money on Soriano.
3. Spend the money on someone else.
If there were a good candidate for (3), the Soriano deal would worry me. In the absence of any such candidate, I'm down with (2).
[62] Finally some sanity in this discussion. All this angst about friggin draft picks. It's like losing your mind because your wife forgot to buy your powerball ticket. Oh, and puhleeeze:
As for Joba, he’s been better than Hughes as a starter
Al, I don't know if it's the stuffed pig's ear in my belly, but I'm not going to get too riled up about it. Bullpen is better than it was this morning, at least there's that.
True enough. Especially if Sori stays healthy. I kind of just like having another Soriano on the team.
Too much $, but I'm pretty confident that it's going to make us feel happier over the next three years.
Look at it this way: we have Soriano, the Rays have Farns.
Guess they had to answer the Krazy Kyle signing... Don't necessarily agree with it, but what's done is done.
I guess this may mean Joba's going into the rotation?
i don't really give a shit about what the pundits say. I live in Saaaaxland. Great move. See through Cashmaaaan's eyes. Contend with me, he says. And I see the Wettland future.
[4] unfortunately, chad jennings reports that he spoke to a yankees source who says Joba is staying put.
That is a sheet-tun of money for a setup dude. That coulda bought a whole lotta hot pretzels if they hadn't messed up Joba.
Sori isn't the second coming of Steve Karsay is he? The money stuff doesn't ever really concern me with the Yanks. Ain't my money. Yanks are made to spend, and often, or at least every once in a while, overspend.
[4] I guess this may mean Joba’s going into the rotation?
hahahahahaha...
Phew, my side hurts. But thanks, man. I needed a good chuckle today.
[8] Yeah, and it's not like they could have spent the money on someone else. There weren't any toys left in the store.
[6] Damn. I was hoping. But of course, the source could be lying, or ignorant, or Cash could change his mind, or whatever.
[8] The money only concerns me if it impinges upon other moves. I just hope there is something left over under the mattress to sign some OF-bench depth.
[6][10] That feeling I've had for a while...the Joba-is-getting-traded-feeling...is getting stronger.
This move makes no sense:
a) The money is more than Boras was asking and no one else was paying that.
b) The pick was in a deep draft.
c) The player is just not that good - he's never been worth $10M in a season in his entire career.
d) When was the last time a relief pitcher the Yankees signed worked out well? Farnsworth, Karsay, and Marte....and now they spend even more? After overpaying for Feliciano?
e) Even if they turn around and trade Joba they're selling very, very low on him, two years after he was ranked the best pitching prospect in the game. Worse, if they were to trade Joba it will cement the fact they could have gotten Halladay two years ago.
I really, really, really don't like this move one bit. If they were so bent on relief pitching they could have signed Jenks. Awful.
At this point, if one thing is crystal fuggin clear, it is that the Yankees do not believe Joba Chamberlain has the "right stuff" to start. They might be wrong, they might have botched giving him a fair shot at it in the first place, but they absofruitly think he's some sort of a chump as a starter. They'll likely take a chance on a Bonderman type of starter for the time being.
The other thing that is clear is that the Yanks will make at least one big pitching move before the trading deadline this summer. We KNOW this. Perhaps they'll get two starters.
The key is for them to stay healthy, otherwise they could have a season much like the Sox did last year. But if they remain healthy, they'll be in the mix, and then they'll go for the juggular, make a big move and try and bust it open.
We know this.
i dunno, my initial reaction, is that i don't like it. at all.
too many years, waaaay too much money. we give a division rival a 1st round draft pick, PLUS a 1st round supplemental pick. all for a need that just doesn't seem that pressing to me. or, at least, a need that could be filled somewhat easily and certainly *much* more cheaply.
soriano is an extreme flyball pitcher and has had elbow issues. i think he's gonna say to himself: 'well, shit, i've got my money and i don't even have the stress of having to close' and will go out there and throw cheese. then, he'll get hurt. then, he'll get raises each year.
and i hate this $14 mil. in the 3rd year. last thing i want, is anything or anyone trying to push Mo out at the end of his 2-yr deal. if Mo wants back, he should come back. i don't think Soriano - three years from now, after not having been a closer for 2 years - is gonna be the in-house answer.
Ugh!
oh jeez - i say the word "s**t" and my comment is awaiting moderation. christ almighty. and this is a New York blog?! : /
[14] Well said! I pretty much agree with every thing you wrote. Especially concerning Joba. For whatever reason, the Joba-as-starter ship has sailed.
[14] I sure hope you're right because I have no clue what the plan is any longer.
[9] Well, as of now they have an 8-man bullpen; Logan, Marte, Feliciano, Soriano, Chamberlain, Robertson, Fish and Turpen. I don't know if Schlitter and Sanchez are on the roster.
[17] That's cause New Yorkers' don't fucking talk like that. Have some fucking respect when commenting.
[18] I think the plan is to carry one starter---maybe two---12 relievers, three catchers and Ramiro Peña. It's so crazy it just might work.
We really can't believe much of what Cashman says publicly. Just last week, he said no on Soriano, that he wasn't willing to give up a first round draft choice for him. And now he signs Soriano. Guess he was bluffing.
Personally, I'm not as hung up on draft choices as others are. A late first-round pick is hardly a cinch to make the major leagues. If it's a top ten pick, that's one thing. But once you get past those early picks, it's pretty much a crap shoot.
This is a move.
I dunno, this signing doesn't make any sense, for the reasons Paul mentioned in [13].
I can see if Cashman invited a bunch of prospective starters to camp, or even if he signed a couple of them, but to add to the pen? And to overpay at that?
[19] I'd love to see Joba start, but it's not gonna happen unless he's starting for another team. Regarding the 8-man BP: I would not be surprised if they carry 13 pitchers for the whole year (they did it a bunch last season).
Fuggin word press.
24) I was waiting to hear your take.
[14] That's way too polyanna for me. This move smacks of $50M to Kei Igawa just because. It's disgusting overkill and exactly what i hate most about this organization.
As for Joba, he's been better than Hughes as a starter. And Hughes has been better in the bullpen, ergo....
Why didn't they trade Montero and Joba for Halladay? When they were willing to trade Montero for a lesser pitcher in Lee and make a Joba a middle reliever for life? By the way, Halladay signed for three years...
[27] So there's no way to turn off the Amish web filters?
Damn, I hate this move.
Please folks help me, relievers in the Cashman years:
Karsay
Farnsworth
Marte
Feliciano
Soriano
Has there been anyone worth their contract?
[31] Negative. Unless, of course, you discount that awesome strikeout of Ortiz by Felix Heredia.
31) How do you really feel?
[26] If it means anything, I don't see Turpen or Fish lasting the season on the Yankees. Of course we should see where Aceves slots in too.
At any rate, I don't see Soriano's signing as a big deal. A puzzling one, certainly, but not one that will hinder the team.
[28] I'm assuming that was sarcasm.
[31] You forgot Tom Gordon, Paul Quantrill, Darren Holmes and Chris Hammond.
[36] I think Tom Gordon was worth the contract
35) No, no, I was eager to know if you liked this. I know you have been frustrated this off season.
Steve Goldman, he no like this:
http://tinyurl.com/4682gcg
[34] Aceves is cooked, no?
I agree about the signing. It doesn't hurt and probably helps, even if not much and for too much $$$. It still doesn't really address the bigger weaknesses of the current roster. But improvement is still improvement.
[33] Disgusted. I just dipped a banana in mayonnaise then slathered on some Nutella.
[38] I think Goldman vastly underestimates the importance of the SEVENTH INNING GUY.
[39] I dunno, he was healthy enough to ride a bike and bust his clavicle. Guess it won't make too much sense to count on him.
"I just dipped a banana in mayonnaise" -- that's what she said.
[38] I certainly don't think it hurts the team in 2011 (I think Feliciano will, either directly or indirectly). But I think the Yankees are basically where they were when the day started. Medicore starting pitching, offense that you hope father time hasn't caught up to. Just now they have a better bullpen. Maybe this allows them to trade Joba for a starter.
[43] Except this time she was 350lbs, covered with the stuff, and said "Toss my salad". That's about how I feel right now.
[41] Yeah how about Cashman try thinking about the 1st through 6th innings, first.
beer. beer is the solution. lots of beer.
i'm hittin' the suds, yo...
[46] Beer is the solution regardless the problem!
45) Jeez...
[44] You mean like Halladay or Haren or Oswalt? Whooops!
[48] You did ask!
[45] At least you didn't say she just came back from a run on a 100 degree humid day. Just say'in, it could be worse.
[51] I've done worse... Hey, even the great ones pad their stats!
[52] We all do at one point or another, up by 9 runs, 2 outs in the bottom of the 8th, we've all "hit" that "big" fly at one point or another to pad are stats.
[47] i like the way you think, mp. here's to ya, pal...
Slainthe!
I'm not enamored of this move. But I think that has more to do with Steve Karsay, Kyle Farnsworth, Damaso Marte, LaTroy Hawkins, Octavio Dotel, Felix Heredia, Gabe White...ok I'll stop
Point is I think a lot of the tsuris over this has to do with factors that have NOTHING to do with Rafael Soriano, who very well might be the best reliever in baseball not named Mo. So for that I'm willing to at least give it till, oh around April 10th, before I decry it as the death of the franchise.
[55] It won't be the death of the franchise, but it is a head scratching move.
[55] hey man, remember when Danny Tartabull was a "Rated Rookie" for like four years straight, or something crazy like that?!
i dug him back in the day. it seemed like every year, i'd get a pack o' cards, and he was a 'rated rookie'. i guess that had to be donruss. and, iirc, he was a rated rook for both the M's and the Royales. some feat!
[56] the dollars are nutty, that I won't argue. But I decided a long time ago not to stress about how this team spends money, because no matter what they say there always seems to be plenty of it lying around. I think any time you throw money at a reliever its a generally headscratching move, but I get throwing money at Soriano way more than I would getting say, Fuentes, who is clearly just a disaster waiting to happen.
[57] haha, the Bull's younger years were slightly before my time but I could definitely see that. My favorite memories of him are that bomb he hit to LF the last day before the strike of '94...and Seinfeld, that about covers it. But I had his poster in my room when I was 10 and that was really all the prompting I needed to throw my support behind him.
Oh and when he said NY would never win anything during Spring Training in '96 because they let Stanley go.
[58] haha! okay, i think i was 10 when his very first card came out. i believe he was still a Rated Rookie when i was 13! i've got 'em all at 'home-home" - somewhere at my parents. i'm pretty sure i know where. i think i liked him enough - and thought his cards were 'worth' enough! - to put 'em in the plastic sleeve in a loose-leaf binder. those are still in the top of 'my' closet.
not sure when i'm gonna make it back to NY - might be mid-april. i'll try to remember to look and post on the banter. by then, it'll be fun to gauge everyone's thoughts on Soriano. me - i think he'll be injured by then...
whoa! i just went to 'preview' my comment and it says "anonymous" and not "thelarmis". f**k the heck?!
[58] I vaguely remember stories of Tartabull confronting Mel Hall over his treatment of Bernie.
I may be confusing hime with someone or making the whole thing up though.
You can see Danny Tartabull and his Jheri curled self playing 2b during Roger Clemens' 20K game in 1986
What's not to like about the deal? The bullpen is better. The team is better. Everything is better. We easily have the best bullpen in the East now, perhaps the entire AL. Who cares about the money?
Grrrr..my comments now being denied even from my Mac sometimes..
Summary of my two bits: Who cares about the $, Yanks can afford it. This guy is no Karsay or Krazy Kyle, Yanks now have the two best relievers in the division. How is this in any way a bad move?
[61] Damn Boat, we're on the same wavelength these days! Let's beer it up end of the month for sure, catch you offline.
[63] Dig. I had an opening tonight, afterall, but I best get home early. My back is still fragged.
BTW, draft picks are like lottery tickets.
[63] I'm reading Emma's book. I'll give it to you when we meet. I got the Mantle book for Xmas, too.
[66] Nice, want to read both of those. I got some more Ellroy and the 500page history of COngolese music for Xmas so I am set too!
Oh, since I'm getting comments through tonight for some reason:
thelarmis! Ever heard of the Japanese drummer Inomata Takeshi? Just got a few of his albums from the early 70s, they'd knock you out.
Oh yeah Boat, I think my dad is sending over the Aaron bio from last year too, if does I'll pass that to you as well.
Hey, I already said I think the money is too high, but what's with all the groaning? (Except from our Far East contingent, of course.) Here are three options.
1. Keep all the money in the bank.
2. Spend the money on Soriano.
3. Spend the money on someone else.
If there were a good candidate for (3), the Soriano deal would worry me. In the absence of any such candidate, I'm down with (2).
Oh, and for Paul: Kerry Wood.
[62] Finally some sanity in this discussion. All this angst about friggin draft picks. It's like losing your mind because your wife forgot to buy your powerball ticket. Oh, and puhleeeze:
As for Joba, he’s been better than Hughes as a starter
Exactly what planet are you residing upon, sir?